NC Infighting
Around the end of the SMBHQ, MetalMan and Sean Kelly, the last remaining admins of SMBHQ, became increasingly antagonistic over the fate of the site. MetalMan, an old fan but new admin, advocated many reforms in the site layout, calling for action to retain it's falling userbase. Sean Kelly, who was the founder and last remaining member of the old guard, had little time to produce actual change and was strongly offended on MetalMan's criticism on his life, work and the original website he worked so hard to maintain.
As the site declined and it's fate fell uncertain with Sean and Jay giving up, MetalMan, exasperated at the growing problems with SMBHQ, decided to move Neglected Mario Characters and SSS to his own site. Sean later closes SMBHQ for good, and all that is left is a mere archive with inlined webpages.
Sean Kelly asks the community what can be done to improve SMBHQ.
...12 Days Later...
Here's a suggestion: UPDATE. I'm talking to YOU, Metal Man!!
The chance of me updating corresponds to the chance of the result pleasing me;
NC will most likely be updated during this Spring break; SMBHQ will probably never be updated by me directly again, however, since my 'weird' ideas harm Sean Kelly's idea of a layout. In internet of nonconflict this may mean that with Sean busy the site will grind to a halt, but that seems to be how he liked it anyway.
Here's a suggestion for you - give me my free viagra.
That's Sean's job.
Like I stated earlier, we need more fan works. User-submitted stuff is the ketchup that makes up the enormous burger that is SMBHQ
Well, I was suggesting that, but then Sean Kelly insisted everyone send it to his mailbox, then vanished.
He's good like that.
Nobody sent anything in.
Also, if I may say something, I created this topic for you to suggest content to update, NOT for you to criticize me for not updating. This has been a tough semester for me and it has been hard for me to find time to update and harder to actually think of what to update.
I you don't want to help me out with that fine, but please give me a break!
So you just want to ask people what you should update, even though you can't update due to your busy semester.
Keep up the good work, Sean. Yelling Jay indirectly for suggesting you update is the way to go.
See what I did when Gabriel asked me to update? I updated. It wasn't much. But it was something.
You on the other hand, simply launch recriminations at the people who are the most interested in what you have to put up.
Since this is a "suggestions" topic, I suggest you shut your mouth about difficulty updating and simply stick to updating... or not updating.
If you can't do it, just say you can't. If you can, set a date like I did, and do something. Anything. It can be small. It can be big.
But the number one thing in the end is that it's something.
Bravo MetalMan you can update.
Pat yourself on the back.
As for this topic, it seems nobody truly wants to help me out, so I'm closing this topic.
The admins of SMBHQ come together to celebrate another uneventful and unhappy birthday.
Each year since the last NC comic has progressed the same.
The layout no longer crashes my browser, I give it that; however it takes up a lot of vertical space. It may be wise to double it up again, just as in the last 'gold standard' layout SMBHQ had.
If SMBHQ deserves anything as a birthday present, it would be a refresh. Pages and pages of ancient content rot slowly as the world moves on; user made sections slowly cease to exist entirely. The site that Kyle and Jay built is gone; not because it has been destroyed, but simply its time has gone by.
But it is not my place to tell the site what to do. Long ago I learned that attempting to force anything on SMBHQ simply caused it to backlash in the opposite direction. Hence, I simply note that attempting to build a community of people around the site again would work more surely than anything else to rebuild the site;
For each site is a reflection of the people who maintain it, and currently I see the reflections of long-gone, past images of Kyle and Jay, the current image of Sean, the faded images of past fans, and the anomaly that is SSS, the last standing fan-based section on the site.
Do not fear any further commentary for me; my time for anything else but the occasional SSS match (and other SSS updates, as it has not lost my faith like SMBHQ has) is over. Destroy or remove this comment if you wish, Sean; mock this all you want, Jay; continue in silent absence, Kyle; my previous fire and anger was at SMBHQ not being something that, as a child, I had made it out to be, and which it had once been.
A site supported by the vivid humor of NC's comics, balanced by the quaint functionality and factual information Kyle provided, and later complemented by a rainbow of fan-maintained sites.
My anger at Sean Kelly was unfair; even if he was Jay or Kyle, he could not be both; his error, in my mind, is simply rejecting and ignoring help, and allowing his personal problems to dominate site work.
Now there is no Jay or Kyle, and an unfocused, overworked Sean alone; my previous wrath is replaced with simple apathy. The worst thing I can do is what I will do; cease to care about anything SMBHQ related besides that one thing which refuses to let me down: SSS.
I leave you, Sean, and anyone else who reads this hear to the oblivion of the near-silent SMBHQ forum. Not that I have particularly been around SMBHQ's main site or done anything for it, sans the SSS work... but I wished to bring an official end to my unofficial "attack Sean Kelly" phase; fueled by an irrational belief that SMBHQ's problems could be made by only one man, they were.
The whole site's broken, not just him. He's just trying to do something about it, and, at least for now, is somewhat swamped.
Although such apathy is the most destructive thing, it will have one benefit; I do not believe Sean will have anybody left to get angry at any more... that is probably the best I can do for SMBHQ besides my updates for SSS.
(Of course, this has no relation to my relatively active VGF posting trend, as I continue to post elsewhere on VGF uneffected. VGF may have no real functional main site, but the rest functions well enough... for my taste.)
Wow, you are talking like SMBHQ has an incurable disease.
However, truth be told:
Until I get to redoing them in the new format, the original game pages are still fine
Other than that only the "Mario 101" and "Plot" pages are probably so out of date something needs to be done.
SMBHQ is doing just fine. Sure, there aren't many posts on this forum and nobody goes to the chat room, but sadly that always was the case.
I still get plenty of e-mail submissions for the site, and the site continues to have a steady traffic flow that I only wish I had on my movie blog.
So, yeah SMBHQ is OK.
That was way too emo for me, MM.
I thought your whole pissy thing against Sean was over months ago. Why even bring it back up?
Personally, I thought your whole post was lame and unnecessary.
Time jump of 4 months. Tanooki Blues writes a positive-negative note on how he liked the site, but it sort of ticks Sean off. Metal Man balks at his treatment of a fan, and turns it into another argument.
Tanooki Blues Jay, when I was a teenager your website made me laff a lot. Good stuff mang, but we all grow up and need to do other stuff besides make sprite comics about Mario characters. Not dissing dude, I'm still trying to grow up myself. Good luck etc., you guys rock.
Sean Kelly To keep the site active, I try to update SMBHQ at least once a week, however to suggest that the site is all that I do is insulting.
Personally, I keep working on SMBHQ as a way to exercise my web design skills. Some of the casual viewers would probably not know that I actually learned some of my more advanced skills (such as PHP) in college.
I do have a life away from SMBHQ and if you don't like an experienced 26 year old running the site, than don't visit it anymore.
This is clearly the attitude the site needs. "I am too busy to update the site, screw you if you have an opinion. SMBHQ is my personal place to experiment on, stop bugging me."
Oops. I just mentioned something negative about Sean. Watch him close this thread. Just like every other thread.
But it isn't about winning or power. It's just an honest comment. The site has no one to update it left besides the SSS people, me, and that great guy who does news all the time. Jay himself has brought up how SMBHQ needs to update.
I was once a whiny jerk who did nothing but complain and didn't back it up. Well, guess what? Now I'm going to back it up. I'm going to update NC more and more, if that's what it takes to show people that SMBHQ isn't dead.
Merely that Sean needs to get off his high horse and let someone update the site.
Of course, you'll tell me, "but it can be updated!" Sure, but Sean has his personal, mazelike setup which has no real focus anywhere and more importantly is a b!#ch to code through. I say that as a self-admitted mazelike code maker. If it's hard for me, it'll cripple anyone who has half a life.
But unlike my roleplay sites, SMBHQ is supposed to be a team job. There's no Sean in team, and there's no Metal in there either. For SMBHQ to truly prosper, it needs to grow beyond petty feuds over spaghetti-coded HTML. It needs a cleanly documented, easily usable, flexible code setup. Sean as a PHP programmer at a college should hopefully better than I even what this is.
The spirit which got SMBHQ going was Kyle's willingness to share his space. He had limited time too. So he made a great space for people like me, Jay, Codiekitty, Wolfman, et al to do our thing.
Today, however, the aging, dilapidated fragments of Kyle's old work have been chopped into tiny bits and stuck inside crusty containers which discourages anyone from actually volunteering. I've quit and then stopped myself half a dozen times, and I'm stubborn as a mule. How well does the fresh-eyed newcomer fare at being allowed to update SMBHQ even by comparison to me?
They don't fare, because Sean won't give them the time of day, taking personal baggage into an impersonal fight. Even when he isn't angry, he's impersonal and detached, giving this appearance that I myself sometimes give of 'you're not worth my time.'
The point is that if we don't want SMBHQ to become like the dead blog templates hosted by VGF, it needs to change.
And I figure if I have to get every topic in this forum locked by Sean to demonstrate that something's wrong with how the main part of SMBHQ is being run, then so be it; I'm not actually violating VGF's rules, and I've been here long enough to know that everywhere else on VGF but this forum, you're allowed to post a civil opinion.
Ball's in your court, Sean. Are you willing to discuss? Have some idea?
I'm not even going to mention the things you've done before. This is a clean slate, yours to do with what you want. If you don't lock this I'll pretend you've never locked a thread like this, never told me to shut up over a legitimate issue, and never attacked fans of SMBHQ for having opinions.
Why, why, why, why, why MetalMan must you always pick a fight with me? (and I seriously thought our disagreements were behind us)
I am not going to argue with you.
I just want to say that I try my best to update regularly. Kyle trusts that I will update and that's all that counts.
It hurts my feelings that you would take the time and rant that I am purposely holding back SMBHQ's development, when in truth that I am held back by a busy school schedule (YOU try commuting three hours a day and then updating a website).
Truth be told, maybe I'm growing a little too old for the site. I don't see myself continuing to be webmaster for more than another one or two years.
However, until than, I am still going to try my best, I am not going to let people like you bring down my spirits.
Of course, you'll tell me, "but it can be updated!" Sure, but Sean has his personal, mazelike setup which has no real focus anywhere and more importantly is a b!#ch to code through. I say that as a self-admitted mazelike code maker. If it's hard for me, it'll cripple anyone who has half a life.
But unlike my roleplay sites, SMBHQ is supposed to be a team job. There's no Sean in team, and there's no Metal in there either. For SMBHQ to truly prosper, it needs to grow beyond petty feuds over spaghetti-coded HTML. It needs a cleanly documented, easily usable, flexible code setup. Sean as a PHP programmer at a college should hopefully better than I even what this is.
I am insulted that you think I "spaghetti code." I have been using SSI for years and the main page and most other pages are made up of many separate files that are updated separately.
If you only bothered to look.
..So far, I have no idea what the hell both of you are talking about. However, I'm just gonna try to sum it all up:
Sean most likely bashed a user here for stating a simple opinion. Sean got mad and sharply replied in a "I'll give you 3 seconds to leave me alone" attitude. MetalMan kinda Stood up for the guy, saying Sean should lighten up and let us have a fair say. Sean dropped the "kyle trusted me" bomb, and Metal here began ranting about the code of the Main Page.
I know I should stay out of this, but for anyone who has no damn idea what this is about, I think I summed it up good enough..
Yes, that is the other issue. Much of the technical details are irrelevant. I shall stick to defending the users from now on, so I reiterate--
Why don't you let the users of SMBHQ have a fair say in things, Sean? The site's meant for them to see. Not just you. Did Kyle tell you to make the site pleasing to you and not, say, him and/or the rest of SMBHQ's viewers?
First off MetalMan, I want to make it clear that I am interpreting your constant complaints about the format of the site as "Sean is a god awful webmaster and I would have done an kick-ass job at running the site. However, Sean had to ruin all my plans by coming back one day after he supposedly resigned."
I also want to reiterate that I am in constant contact with Kyle via AIM. Very rarely do I add something new to the site without getting his feedback. As such, I believe it is very bold of you to suggest that I do not care what he or others think.
I believe that you are disgruntled that you never got to implement your plans for SMBHQ and that you are insulted that someone like me (who you believe to be inferior) is still in charge of the site.
I created the suggestion topic for serious suggestions about the site to help me out, but once you had the chance to talk about how much you were planning on updating NC, you couldn't shut up about that, while at the same time throwing towards me for not updating.
The only person, whose opinion I don't care about listening to is YOU. I am going to admit now that I DO NOT like you. It seems apparent now that you hold a grudge against me for apparently ruining your chances of being webmaster of SMBHQ and as such I will no longer pay attention to anything else you say.
Enjoy NC.
Your constant behavior of taking everything for meaning the worst speaks for itself, Sean. I believe it is self evident what you care about in your outburst.
This isn't about me. If I wanted to overwrite ever single file on SMBHQ I could, but I don't, because I want to help SMBHQ. And I'm not going to even be stopped by you ignoring me this time. No way, Jose. You do what you want, but I'll find a way to help SMBHQ and listen to its viewers, even as you lock yourself in your office and play loud music (or the internet equivalent thereof.)
I have a grudge against anyone who, from the appearance of it, takes a website which was one of the top Mario websites, demands responsibility for the whole of it, then, much like my father, lets it fall apart and ignores practically all suggestions relevant to it.
You might talk to Kyle every day, but I for one know the only discussion which ever mattered, the one in which you came back merely because your Mom told you to, and you spoke about how you just needed the money from SMBHQ.
I don't give a f#$% about what you think about me, Sean. You can put away that tired old card. Get with reality, man; the site's an ad-infested dead zone. And you know all that screaming and anger you get? If I was telling lies you'd just laugh 'em off, going 'SMBHQ's just great, man. What're you smoking?'
But instead, your extreme reaction shows a problem you've been repressing all this time.
I'm not here to judge or criticisize; I wish to help. It seems you'd rather I hate you than help, but I'm not going to fall for that one again.
But if you're going to ignore me, so be it. I will continue working to help SMBHQ without your sanction or sight, and if anyone asks, I can safely say you didn't want to see it.
This, to me, feels like the NC Elections all over again...sigh.
Oh, and the reason he doesn't like you is because you keep talking him down. With no visible support, I might add.
From what I've heard and seen, Kyle was a great guy. If he trusts Sean and keeps contact with him, that should be enough for you.
In your defense, though, it sounds like the site is a jumbled mess of coding. If Sean has the capability, then maybe he should do something about it, but that kind of thing takes time.
I've been talking about this thing for years. This hasn't changed since eons ago, sans my position.
My support, ironically, comes down to the same thing which got me elected, and the sword which cuts through the gordion knot--as Jay once told me, it doesn't really matter who's right or who's wrong as long as the site's being updated. I suppose trying to talk a stubborn guy like Sean into doing it was wrong since it's all about me hating him to him but what can you say? If I didn't care I'd haven't had revisited this.
Rather than clutter more threads I'll put my work where my mouth is and make some things and let the viewers be the judge of it. After all, what is Kyle/Sean gonna say? "No! Stop improving the site! I don't want more people viewing ads and contributing!"
MetalMan I can ignore you if I want to because, quite frankly there are worse things in this world to worry about than what you think of me.
It will be a pleasure NOT knowing you.
(and this topic is closed)
The people in this thread are saddened by SMBHQ's fall in popularity and views.
Well, it has been a while in going.
Basically, SMBHQ once competed with the likes of TMK for being #1.
Then Jay had to go to school, and Kyle got a job with Joystiq.
Once upon a time, me and Sean were both there to do stuff.
Then Sean overrode the things I did and acted like a freaking idiot.
Ads infested the site and I lead the charge as the 'special sections' fled one after the other.
Now, through a fit of irony, it's me, the news guy, and Sean who are all that is left.
I just update NC and SSS, though. Sean threw me off the mailbag for displeasing him once.
And removed me from the staff list for a separate occasion.
But it's all cool with me, because it's not like anyone cares what he thinks.
Jesus, MM, let it go. -jay
I would, if I could simply have some closure about the issue. It has been laying out, open-ended; I have tried every tach I know to try to solve it. But every time something goes wrong. I left Sean alone--he just did things against me anyway. I attacked Sean, quite viciously--I got some results, then he vanished. In and out, back and forth, this has been going on for over 4 years.
It all came down to the same thing--you or Kyle making a definite decision of some kind about it.
But the decision never came, and so, like an unending loop condition, here we are, 4 years in the future, as I struggle to figure out some way to make the madness end.
The problem has always been the love-hate relationship--originally I just loved all of SMBHQ, but from the day I say Sean appear my love began to be tempered with hatred of his work and what he did. Then the ads came, and I hated them. But SSS and SSQ were great, so I loved them. But Sean changed the front page around and the ads some more and I hated that so much I took my site and left.
But then there were more good SSS things, and more good NC things, and I loved those; but then Sean took me off the mailbag and staff page for no reason and I hated that.
So I really don't know what to do--for it's about exactly 50-50 now. You see me updating NC while turning around and spitting bile at the main site; I also help SSS but.. .again, turn around and savagely attack the main site.
Perhaps some reasonable guidance beyond your tired and useless 'Do weird stuff to the main site! Maybe then Sean will leave you alone!'
But that is enough of this topic. If you don't have one, don't bother replying, I'm sick of talking about it. I might not give it up, but I sure can grow tired of replaying it, which should serve as 'good enough' for your tastes.
MetalMan, I find it amazing that you are able to take any topic posted in this forum and find a way to poke a jab at me.
In your eyes, I am single-handedly to blame for SMBHQ's so-called downfall. I am not going to try to reason with you anymore, because your are arrogant kid that believes you are the grand saviour of SMBHQ (yes I called you a KID).
I've only had the webmaster position for 5 years. I want to say right now, that I was very reluctant to take it when Kyle and Jay offered it to me. I was happen as a regular staff member that offered some advise to Jay. I can say that I tried my best with the role, even though it got harder as I got older.
In 2004, I was a 22 year old unemployed computer programming graduate. Now, I'm a 27 year old Film Student one year away from graduating. I admit I outgrew SMBHQ. These days, I spend more effort trying to post to my film blog everyday than trying to think of some obscure item to update SMBHQ with.
However, it is too much to say that I killed SMBHQ. I had my own Nintendo fansite once. It was called the "Canadian Nintendo and Computer Page" or CN&CP. It had weird badly drawn mascots Blob and Boxy and the site was just for fun. That site was eventually discontinued, it was truly dead. You will no longer find any record of it on the web.
SMBHQ is still online and there are current dates on the front page. That is enough for me to define the site as alive. It is probably the most successful web endeavor I have participated in and I am glad to have been given that chance.
MetalMan, I don't like you and I have grown to almost hate you. There are times when I think that our differences are put aside, only for you to suddenly throw another jab in my direction.
You can make a rebuttal and throw my words back into my face to your hearts content. You can be guaranteed that I will never read them. In fact this is my absolutely final post for VGF forums. You can turn this into an "I Hate Sean" fest for all I care.
I'm just too old for this ****.
Well, that settles that. Show's over.
MM, you're a good guy, and I believe that your intentions are pure, but really, I just don't understand your logic sometimes and I think you go about things the wrong way.
First, for the record, SMBHQ isn't my site. It's Kyle's site ultimately. I webmastered it for a time, but that was it. I don't make a cent off of it anymore. NC I still consider my own site. But for SMBHQ I consider myself an adviser only at this time. So no final decision is ever mine to give. I only offer advice for what I believe is best for SMBHQ (which ultimately I believe is to have someone to simply update the damn site consistently).
Second, there are a few accusations and attacks on myself that I feel are quite unwarranted.
"Perhaps some reasonable guidance beyond your tired and useless 'Do weird stuff to the main site! Maybe then Sean will leave you alone!'"
I don't remember saying anything specifically like that. I believe I said something more like, "If you want to update the site, DO IT, and we'll deal with how Sean reacts later." Nothing about "weird stuff." I'm talking about good, solid updates. At the time, you kept claiming that you had all of these great ideas for the site, and you wanted to update it constantly with new stuff. My advice has always been "well, do it." I said that the important thing is to have SMBHQ updated. If you and Sean had conflicts along the way, I told you to tell me and I can try to act as a mediator. Because I think we could have found common ground in terms of having you both update the site in peace. But I never heard from you. You never talked to me. So I assumed that you didn't want my help and didn't care anymore.
"In and out, back and forth, this has been going on for over 4 years."
Really? I thought this was over two years ago, when you said you wanted nothing to do with updating SMBHQ anymore. I thought that was pretty clear and final to me. From what I remember the last time you talked to me about this, you didn't want to have anything to do with Sean, and as a result you would not update SMBHQ. Pretty clear. Seems like a conclusion to me.
Now, if you are having second thoughts and WOULD like to update SMBHQ, then you TALK TO ME (and Kyle, and Sean) about it in a CIVILIZED MANNER.
Taking your pot shots at how SMBHQ is going downhill CONSTANTLY (even if it's true) and CONSTANTLY bashing Sean for no real reason IS NOT PRODUCTIVE.
That is why I said to let it go. I don't want to hear you bashing Sean constantly. It gets old.
If you want to help SMBHQ, then talk to us and help SMBHQ. Be constructive. What you're doing now isn't constructive, it's simply getting annoying.
I just don't understand what the problem is. You can not simultaneously say things like "SMBHQ sucks now, Sean sucks" as well as "I want nothing to do with helping fix SMBHQ."
Either you help SMBHQ or you don't. But I hope you realize that your constant attacks on Sean do not help ANYONE.
And please, don't bring me into this like it's my fault. I told you countless times before, I am glad to listen to people if they want to talk. But I have heard nothing from you that would make me think that you would like to constructively help SMBHQ. All you do is attack Sean. Let it go.
First and foremost, the only reason I did what I did was to get a response from you. Which I did; so I succeeded. My methods may have been questionable, but now I know what I need to know about the situation.
Of Sean, he has already conceded the argument with me, so there is no more bashing to be done. It was all a counter-attack for various actions of his which I consider unreasonable; since I could not get them handled officially I had to go vigilante to bring my point across. I did, so now I need no longer continue that, since Sean himself made it clear I'd be attacking nobody, since he won't be reading this any more.
With that done, would I update SMBHQ? It is a possibility, but I will not work with Sean Kelly... on a boat, in a train, while on fire, or under the sea, or anywhere else for that matter.
So then, I shall simply resort to the method you originally spoke of; when it comes to helping SMBHQ at least. I just needed to get the Sean Kelly mayhem out of my way. But now it is done.
Just FYI, after what I have witnessed of your behavior, it will take some convincing on your part before I am willing to go out of my way and spend time to help you in the future.
An announcement probably 4 years too late, but I guess there's no sense pretending I'll ever do any more work for this site. You can go ahead and remove my name from both SMBHQ and NC. I'd appreciate it.
I'll still be lurking around the VGF Forums like I do if anyone wants to get a hold of me.
-jay
I can still remember a decade ago, when you were still updating the site and I was a young fan of your comix. Damn you, life.
Have fun with life and stuff. If it's any merit, without you I probably never would've found VGF and become the worldly man I am today. I'll vote for you in '20.
I guess I'm the editor of NC for now, then, since Sean also backed away from it.
Man, talk about insane. I figured I'd go somewhere with NC, but all the way as it is now? Yeah.
So long Jay. I'll probably be joining you in SMBHQ retirement sooner rather than later.
Well, I'll still be around.
Me and... the ads Kyle has. Yeah.
On that note, can't you convince anybody (like Kyle) to remove those ads? Honestly now, I should not have expected the original staff to have stayed on SMBHQ forever. I suppose leadership should be passed down every 1-2 generations. Or 1/3-1/2 of a generation. Blah. I've tried, Kyle has pretty much given any suggestion of that the middle finger.
Eh. I consider the ads to be stealing from the subsection editors, and from me. That, and they're butt-ugly. And none of the fans like them. And other Mario sites have only a fraction of the amount SMBHQ has. And Kyle has several lucrative blog things for his income anyway. And I, who only has money once or twice a year, can pay (most likely) the bandwidth for a site as large as SMBHQ and the domain name without resorting to a single ad.
There just isn't any excuse for them. I'm sure there's a reason Kyle has the ads, otherwise they wouldn't be there. Remember that the bandwidth for the site and the domain is owned by Shane, not Kyle, and I have no idea what sort of deal they have.
Also, I think it's obvious that I'm not as dedicated to the site as I was a decade ago. I wasn't joking when I said I'd retire from the site sooner rather than later. Currently the only thing that keeps me involved with the site is my half of the ad revenue. If the ads go away, it's likely that I will be going away with them.
Right now I'm committed to stay with SMBHQ for at least another year, as I finish school and begin my career. After that, it really depends on how much time I have.
Well, actually, you just said why he has the ads now.
Without the ads, you are gone, therefore, my attacks on the ads have been misplaced.
I thank you for the honesty, anyway.
Of course, some of the ads pay for hosting, but, with things as they are, that can't be very much money.
I just wanted some transparency, so we'd know why viagra and liposuction are featured prominently on SMBHQ.
Now we know--so I will no longer attack the ads, as, without them, we do not have you, Sean. (Whom is the only one maintaining the front page--also, I like the new PHP based review layout)
And I also apologize for not figuring this out earlier and unnecessarily attacking the ads and/or Sean when the answer was staring me in the face.
Indeed, I had parts of the answer before, but back when I just wanted to shoot first, ask questions later. That was dumb. Sorry, Sean.
Lotsa people mentioning me here, so I guess I'll come out of my usual pattern of hiding/neglecting the site and chime in.
Keeping my name on to give me credit for everything that I've done is appreciated and the best way to go I think. I mainly just didn't want to give people the impression that I still did work for the site.
- jay
This is probably the best way to credit me as well, at this point. While I still give Sean input when he requests it and routinely handle business stuff for the site (see discussion of ads, below) I can't remember the last time I did a real update or even seriously considered doing the same. My career as a freelancer, author and then Staff Writer for Crispy Gamer has taken precedence, and it's not fair to give the impression that I still actively do work for the site. Co-Founder/Owner/Editor Emeritus might be the best title at this point.
Eh. I consider the ads to be stealing from the subsection editors, and from me. That, and they're butt-ugly. And none of the fans like them. And other Mario sites have only a fraction of the amount SMBHQ has. And Kyle has several lucrative blog things for his income anyway. And I, who only has money once or twice a year, can pay (most likely) the bandwidth for a site as large as SMBHQ and the domain name without resorting to a single ad.
There just isn't any excuse for them. OK then, on to the money stuff. First off, the ads don't actually pay for the hosting/domain registration of the site directly. That's paid for by Shane, apparently in perpetuity, since I haven't been able to contact him for years (even when I need to for administrative stuff) and SMBHQ has stayed up that whole time. Shane does make money off the ads on the forums and on other non-SMBHQ parts of VGF.com, so I guess that makes it worthwhile for him.
So why are there ads, then? Sean hinted at one part: It pays his salary. Sean and I currently have a 50/50 split on the ad revenue, and the 50% that goes to Sean compensates for his time spent updating the site (I won't get into specific numbers -- it's not anybody's business -- but it's not gold-plated caviar money. It's not even live-above-the-poverty-line money, on its own, actually).
As for my 50%, I consider it a return on an investment at this point. For about five years (from 1997-2001) I put a lot of time and effort to creating and updating and turning SMBHQ into what it is. Most of that effort was undertaken for little or no pay at the time, and I was happy to do it because of my love for Mario and the community around him and the site. But that's not to say I never planned to make money off the site, and now that I'm able to, I'm not going to apologize for it. Many business owners and entrepreneurs put money/effort into unprofitable projects in the hopes it will pay off in the future, and that's the way I look at my relationship to SMBHQ at this point.
Does this make the site a little uglier than it would be, ad free? Yes. But really, ads are an integral part of the Internet now. If you can't be bothered to just move your eyes past them quickly, there are ad-blocking add-ons for most major browsers, and I can't stop you from using them.
Is this "stealing" from the subsection editors, as Metal Man alleges? As far as I can remember, no subsection editor has quit over the lack of pay for their work at SMBHQ. If they threatened to do that, I would probably take it under a case by case basis, based on how much work they were doing on the site and how much revenue I felt could be spared for that level of work, much like any business owner would evaluate pay for any employee. In any case, it's not really an issue to be argued out in public.
In short:
Kyle needs his beer money, ya know. -jay
Indeed!
I just wanted some transparency, so we'd know why viagra and liposuction are featured prominently on SMBHQ.
"Featured prominently?" You see ONE link to Liposuction if you scroll ALL THE WAY DOWN to the bottom of the front page, and why the heck are you even looking down there, anyway? If Viagra ads are appearing, it's through one of the ad networks and they are appearing because they get results (I.E., people click on them more often than other ads, so they show up more often). Welcome to the Internet.
Anyway, I hope that has helped re: transparency.
I suppose it's a matter of waiting until Kyle has given enough control to you guys that you can get rid of the ads. Then we'll see who's flipping who off!
That's not going to happen.
...That reminds me...does Kyle visit the forums often?
Just often enough, apparently.
Is this "stealing" from the subsection editors, as Metal Man alleges? As far as I can remember, no subsection editor has quit over the lack of pay for their work at SMBHQ. If they threatened to do that, I would probably take it under a case by case basis, based on how much work they were doing on the site and how much revenue I felt could be spared for that level of work, much like any business owner would evaluate pay for any employee. In any case, it's not really an issue to be argued out in public.
Well, this is where your lack of appearing has sort of bitten you in the foot.
SSQ left over the ads and SSS has also left, although over SMBHQ's low activity level rather than ads.
In any case, the problem is no longer relevant, since that now leaves just me and Gage and Sean; Sean's being paid, Gage is content with whatever he's doing (I dunno) and being able to update NC is a reward in itself which requires no money.
"Featured prominently?" You see ONE link to Liposuction if you scroll ALL THE WAY DOWN to the bottom of the front page, and why the heck are you even looking down there, anyway? If Viagra ads are appearing, it's through one of the ad networks and they are appearing because they get results (I.E., people click on them more often than other ads, so they show up more often). Welcome to the Internet.
Actually I double-checked and most of the ads I objected to (intellitxt, hideously huge Google ads) have left, although many fans I have spoken to seem to find the inaccuracy of Google's matching distracting. But there's nothing we can do about that, can we?
In short, the passage of time has eroded away most of the relevance of the old boring complaints I threw around, as apparently, they actually did work and did cause things like intellitxt to die a horrible death.
That said, they did us a service in getting you to pay attention for once, as the reason I kept mentioning them was that, for years, I didn't get an answer on them. So even when they eventually resolved themselves, I still wanted an answer, and here we are in 2010.
But now I have an answer, and the two issues are dead. So, to move on to something else...
...What do you plan to do when/if Sean leaves, Kyle?
Although I take one thing back--intellitxt ads are still fouling up the site with obnoxious green links.
But I guess if money is that important, to heck with what viewers think.
Of course, you can get money AND viewers, with these simple steps:
- Your old content from 1997-2001 was fine when it was made, but in the year 2010, you're beginning to sound like ye olde English man, speaking about games that were made before the current likely generation of people reading the site were born as if they're coming soon/brand new. It should be put together in a unified archive so it's not lost and the effort isn't wasted, but also so people can differentiate old from new without trial and error. The archive can also turn the old timey nature of the old site pieces from a negative to a positive by commenting how they are 'nostalgic' and such.
- Intellitxt may make more money in the short run, but in the long run, it makes your site have much more in common with Googlebomb/spam sites. Yes, welcome to the internet--the type of internet ad scheme usually associated with shady file sharing sites and worse. This keeps more interesting people away. Guess what?
- If you remove them, people may want to view the site more.
- Then if you ensure the proper SEO is done, you get many more visitors.
- Throw in the consolidation of 'old' content and make new content more like that PHP stuff Sean has programmed, aaaand...
- You can focus on money while also making the site a nice place to visit.
But it's your site, man. No sweat here, I just don't want SMBHQ to die. I'm sure you don't either, as that'd kind of curtail the amount of money you'd get.
If nothing else (regular ads/banners/whathaveyous don't get in my way), you're totally right about this one. Unless otherwise absolutely necessary to be reading their site, I leave pages that have randomly linking text in the main article. I can take ads being plastered around the body of text, but crapping all through it? I'll find somewhere else with the same info, thanks anyway. shrug Yeah, that's where my dislike of the SMBHQ ads started.
I had no problem with the ads originally. Then, this:
Originally Posted by Kyle 8/24/06 Hey all. Kyle Orland, the prodigal Webmaster, here with an update that will probably annoy a lot of visitors. As you may notice, we've recently signed up with IntelliTXT to provide contextual advertising links inside the text of most all of the pages on SMBHQ. You will notice these as green, double-underlined links that flash a small advertisement when you hover over them. I know they're annoying, but every click helps keep us going at SMBHQ Central, so thanks for your support.
Kyle himself admitted they will probably annoy a lot of visitors. And you can guess what my reaction was (my site consisting of hundreds of pages of text, which now had an entire green glowing field of intellitxt links in them)
Originally Posted by Kyle 8/26/06 We're sorry to report that Super Smash Quest has decided to move off of SMBHQ to its own hosting at MetalMan88.com. After over four years as part of SMBHQ, MetalMan has decided it was time for SSQ to move on and come into its own. MetalMan will continue to write for the Super Smash Stadium occasionally. We wish him and SSQ all the best.
Additionally, Kyle seems to have forgotten the reaction his original ads got from Pat, who was at the time, more or less representing SSS:
Originally Posted by Sean Kelly, 8/11/04 3:23 PM Hi guys.
Kyle has set up a new ad code that you should ad to you pages.
Add the following code to the BOTTOM of your pages ASAP:
Also I created a new copyright code for implementation on the index.html (or similar) file on your pages. Please add this as well. (BTW it should go BEFORE the ad code)
Finally if you don't have it already, please make sure that the google ad code is at the top of your pages, INCLUDING splash pages.
Please make sure that all of these codes are added to your pages ASAP
If you have any questions, feel free to ask
Sean Kelly
P.S. Please tell me when the code is added, so I can go check
This was responded to with
Originally Posted by Pat VanDusen, 8/11/2004 8:31 PM Ok, TWO ad page codes and a COPYRIGHT code? Just forget that alot of us use different copyrights; this whole idea is bullfeces.
"I haven't lost my temper in 40 years, but pilgrim, you caused a lot of trouble this morning that might have got somebody killed and somebody ought to belt you in the mouth. But I won't. I won't. The hell I won't." ~John Wayne (McClintock)
And he was promptly ignored.
Of course, unlike Pat in the year 2004, I have no problem with banner ads. But intellitxt is just dumb. Random links Precision-guided links that appear on the most likely to be used phrases on a Mario site in text drive away visitors, and if you follow my train of thought, this means less money for Sean and Kyle.
So, in fact, why am I saying this? Go ahead and keep it, by all means. It's your money.
And this by no means completely chronicles the other thing that led to SMBHQ becoming rather deadish: the lack of reporting of subsection updates.
See here, Jay reporting subsection updates. This is a generally active time.
Then... the age of intellitxt begins..
Then... BAM! Good-bye major updates.
Then it becomes about as dead as it is today.
While there's no one reason for SMBHQ's fall into semi-inactivity, having been observing this thing since 1998, I'd think some of what I say has to be true; my eyes and old emails and old SMBHQ updates can't all be deceiving me.
But with that, I've said all I've wanted to say on the matter--nothing new left to speak of. I bet none of this will be resolved, intellitxt ads will remain, and eventually Sean will leave, and possibly be replaced by someone else being paid like him. On that point, you need not rebut my arguments, for I already know what you're going to say.
"I want my money." "I only work for money." "SMBHQ is the place where my old updates make me money."
I'm just thinking, you could stand to make some more money, that's all. But, if you don't get it, you don't get it. Can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink.
Yes, it's me, back from the grave, so to speak.
Quick disclaimer: SSS is no longer part of SMBHQ, but I am no longer on the SSS staff, so my opinion doesn't necessarily represent that of SSS or any of its staff members. My opinion MIGHT represent that of the Sprite Section, but it's still 2005 there, so we can all forgive it.
As for my 50%, I consider it a return on an investment at this point. For about five years (from 1997-2001) I put a lot of time and effort to creating and updating and turning SMBHQ into what it is. Most of that effort was undertaken for little or no pay at the time, and I was happy to do it because of my love for Mario and the community around him and the site. But that's not to say I never planned to make money off the site, and now that I'm able to, I'm not going to apologize for it. Many business owners and entrepreneurs put money/effort into unprofitable projects in the hopes it will pay off in the future, and that's the way I look at my relationship to SMBHQ at this point.
Does this make the site a little uglier than it would be, ad free? Yes. But really, ads are an integral part of the Internet now. If you can't be bothered to just move your eyes past them quickly, there are ad-blocking add-ons for most major browsers, and I can't stop you from using them.
Is this "stealing" from the subsection editors, as Metal Man alleges? As far as I can remember, no subsection editor has quit over the lack of pay for their work at SMBHQ. If they threatened to do that, I would probably take it under a case by case basis, based on how much work they were doing on the site and how much revenue I felt could be spared for that level of work, much like any business owner would evaluate pay for any employee. In any case, it's not really an issue to be argued out in public.
Holy crap, do you actually believe this nonsense?
Kyle, let me explain something to you. Back in the day, SMBHQ was great, sure. You did good work and everyone appreciates that. But nothing you did ever came close to the accomplishments of some of your "subsection editors". By far the biggest parts of SMBHQ in your time were NC, which you had no involvement with, and SSS, which you had only marginally started and then handed off. Both of them had, and for a long time continued to have, huge audiences independently of anything going on in your domain. So don't go acting like all of the dusty crap sitting on SMBHQ's front page is some big accomplishment of yours; it's mostly cruft, and the most popular parts of your website had nothing to do with you.
And even before SSS, long before anyone left here even remembers, all of the best parts of your website were things done by other people. SMBHQ used to have a ton more in the way of fan contributions and original entertainment; strangely, none of that good stuff is even on the website anymore. What happened to it, I wonder?
And after SSS? There were folks like Metal and Sean Kelly doing all of the good work around here. You were pretty much gone.
Your only legacy here is slowly letting your website die, first by smothering and ripping off your subsection authors (which may be why the turnover was so damned high), then by smearing disgusting ads and nonsense all over the front page (Believe it or not, there is such a thing as tastefully done ads). You've effectively been raping SMBHQ for the last 8 years. Good job, kemo sabe.
EDIT: Almost forgot... Jay, I know we've had our differences, but I'd like for you to know that I never had anything but admiration for you. In my opinion, you and NC were always the best SMBHQ had to offer. Your loss is a sore blow to the web.
And this by no means completely chronicles the other thing that led to SMBHQ becoming rather deadish: the lack of reporting of subsection updates.
See here, Jay reporting subsection updates. This is a generally active time.
Then... the age of intellitxt begins..
Then... BAM! Good-bye major updates.
Then it becomes about as dead as it is today.
While there's no one reason for SMBHQ's fall into semi-inactivity, having been observing this thing since 1998, I'd think some of what I say has to be true; my eyes and old emails and old SMBHQ updates can't all be deceiving me.
You sound too much like a conspiracy theorist at the best of times.
For starters, December 2005 was NOT an active time. Actually, this is around the time I am beginning to have less time for the site (I started University September 2005) and Jay was on his way out.
There were many different phases of SMBHQ:
- The Beginning Phase (1997 - 2001): Kyle was webmaster from the start of the site in August 1997 until he stepped down in October 2001. At the time Kyle stepped down, the updates were FAR less frequent than they are now (i.e. once every three months).
- The Jay Phase (2001 - 2004): Jay saved the site from permanent inactivity and took over the webmaster duties. His updates generally consisted of reporting subsection updates and not much else. This phase is pretty much the peak of the site.
- The Jay and Sean Phase (2004 - 2006): As a staff member, I always helped Jay behind the scenes and I was officially made co-webmaster in 2004.
- The Problem Phase (2006 - 2007): Jay steps down as a full-time webmaster and I am on my own (and Kyle coincidently begins the Intellitxt). School is really taking a toll on the updates and Kyle begins to notice. The phase ends when I step down and am replaced by MetalMan.
- The Sean and Metal Phase (2007): Because the ad revenue was my only source of income, I promised myself to become more committed to the site and I returned the next day to be a co-webmaster with Metalman. You pretty much know how that turned out, so I won't go any further.
- The Weekly Phase (2007 - 2009): I had a renewed commitment to the site and tried to make sure to update the site once a week. I manage to keep it up for about two years.
- The Current Phase (2009 - Present): There are many reasons for why the updates have gone back to being bi-weekly or less, however it essentially boils down to the fact that I am now in my late 20s and life is beginning to take over big time.
As for the whole subsection thing during my time as webmaster, with the exception of SSS, there was no section that even came close to updating regularly (that includes, up until recently, NC). If you look at all the subsections run by an editor, there are some that have haven't been updated in 2-3 years (I could always vacate the section and look for a new editor, but no one ever applies). I used to regularly check for section updates to report, but I eventually stopped when I frequently saw that there were none.
Right here I would suggest Sean get some sort of real job, but since I don't know at all what his skills are, or his priorities, I can't make any useful comments here.
My best contributions to site came during a 2 year period between 2003 and 2005.
You know why? I was failing miserably at my post college job search and I spent the better part of two years sitting at home and twiddling my thumbs.
My lack of job search success is a big sore spot for me and damn you for opening up those wounds.
EDIT: Maybe this a bit too angry of a response, but truly you really shouldn't make judgments about the personal life of a guy you only know through a forum.
In any case, what has been said has been said, and it's up to Kyle if he makes any changes at all, but I appreciate the support from SD and Pat, as it has been lonely business trying to explain that, whether or not they're kept, the Intellitxt ads may be counter-productive.
Whatever happens from here on out, happens. I'm just gonna be updating NC; if Kyle really doesn't care, then, what can I say? He made the site, it's his to stick ads on. I just was hoping I might sway him to make his site closer to the one I used to remember being 'The cool place to see Mario stuff' with many subsections and only banner ads. But as time goes on, I see that was only possible with Jay, who is gone now; and while I could try to emulate Jay, I don't have that kind of time either. So I'll just move on to my other projects, while continuing to do my SMBHQ business.
Which will include the occasional game review and perhaps, if you will allow it, Mailbag answering. Since you finally made it so Game reviews aren't crushed, Sean.
After the revelations found in the previous thread, MetalMan realizes that it was not actually Sean's fault that SMBHQ was becoming trash, and hard living combined with his harsh criticism resulted in his uncooperative feelings. Unfortunately, this fails to save the site, and the admins have given it up as a lost cause.
- I went for a trip in May, which threw me off my rhythm a bit.
- I have been glued to the TV watching the World Cup
- I've been doing some soul searching after my graduation and wondering about whether it is really worth it in the long run for me to continue the site
I haven't written off the site just yet and I am hoping to finally get around to updating within the next week or two.
Just think.. If you quit.. NC will have to move again.
Technically I have that part covered.
But I too am unsure whether there's much point to continuing things, since it seems at best to be recycling old material endlessly and at worst being a Jay impostor.
Jay himself doesn't really care for how things have been, either. Poker. Pokerpokerpoker. Er, I mean, since SMBHQ has sort of become a hollowed-out-shell of what it was. I mean, just look at Nintendoland. Or TMK. Or MarioWiki. Or anywhere else.
SMBHQ was once the top place to be for community stuff, but stuff ran that off, and now it's just kind of an old site. Since the adjustments it no longer sucks to use, but... is just sort of old and outdated in spots. It just seems like we've all become too old to have much enthusiasm in it anymore, especially since...
- Nintendo no longer blatantly neglects most of the non-Mario characters
- Other sites, especially MarioWiki, have obliterated the need to catalog Mario information
- Sprite comics have come to be seen as out of fashion almost like Disco
- The fans who maintained sections have moved elsewhere
- New media like Twitter, Facebook, and so on have taken people's attention off of fan sites and onto fan groups on those sites instead
- Video stuff about Mario and other games have exposed all the little nifty secrets sites like SMBHQ once were the sole possessors of
- Those sites which persist utilize fully Web 2.0 PHP/SQL/blog post formats in order to post faster and spread their reach further
- The news section has recently gone silent
- No major site or people seem to be paying attention to the reviews that are being posted
- Site visits have fallen off from 60k, to 40k, to now leveling off somewhere around 30k
In essence, the age of websites like SMBHQ has pretty much come to a halt. If you want to be relevant, you have to post reviews and news. SMBHQ barely managed with two people, and those two people are busy. I, with the NC stuff, was a third column, but even I have sort of become disheartened at how... inactive it all is, and how I seem to just be making dim echoes of what Jay did.
After a point, it becomes a question of whether it's worth it to continue to ride the old, failing car or whether it should be allowed to retire with dignity. Keep up all the content, heck, keep up the ads...
But perhaps, if nothing else, let it rest until some passion can be found again, somewhere.
I say retire them both. Archive the content but just let it fade into the mists of the internets. They're dead, jim.
More or less. Continued work is sort of futile, as either side is reaching a smaller and smaller audience as time goes by.
This is pretty sad. Thinking back at all the good times I had with the sites, it almost brings me to tears. Do want you want with them, but make sure it's want you want to do.
I want NC to live.
NC was effectively dead somewhere around 2007, if not earlier. My attempts to make it live have mostly fallen upon dead ears--as in, most of the old fans are gone. I appreciate those who would want it to be active, and who continue to submit stuff, but ultimately, without an active community and Jay's sense of humor, I can't really claim it to be alive, even when I do update it.
so ive known about this site since i was like...12? idk, but i found it a long ass time ago. used to go to this website all the time, and i just now made an account...too band its kind of pointless though, seems as if this site is almost dead now...sigh, i wish great things didnt have to fade.