2013 10_Meeting_IRC_Log

ruleant: phpMyAdmin meeting in 5 minutes, agenda can be found here : https://wiki.phpmyadmin.net/pma/2013-10_Meeting ruleant: one minute, is everyone here? mynetx: Hello there nijel: hi everybody madhuracj: Hi all mynetx: Notice: I may have to disappear after 15 minutes. Marc9: Hi nijel: mynetx: do you want to start with some particular topic? mynetx: Swapping topics 1 and 2 is fine. ruleant: I don't see Rouslan online ruleant: ibennetch are you there? mynetx: ibennetch is marked as afk nijel: ruleant: I think we can start even if not everybody is online, we would then have no meeting at all ruleant: @nijel, yes I know Just checking who's here – blognewb se připojil do místnosti ruleant: I propose to start nijel: yes, go ahead ruleant: who makes the report? – blognewb se odpojil (Client Quit) nijel: if nobody else wants I can again write the report madhuracj: ibennetch seems to be online now ruleant: @nijel you did it last time, I will make notes nijel: ruleant: thanks Marc9will start calling topics and Isaac can take over madhuracj: sorry my mistake Marc9: 2. Mobile readiness ruleant: First point : mobile readiness, any comments Marc9gives control to ruleant to call topics starting and ending mynetx: my comments see Agenda nijel: I think having mobile version would be great, but do we have manpower for that? nijel: Maybe it's something GSoC student could do next year? Marc9: mynetx do you see this as a good GSoC 2014 project? mynetx: This is more than we ourselves could do, so: Yes ruleant: how much work would this be? mynetx: Depends on the approach to take nijel: I think with some minor adjustments in code it could be just another theme... mynetx: And whether any UI structure needs to be changed mynetx: I vote for editing the current default pmahomme theme ruleant: agree that having a specific mobile-ready theme would help ruleant: but I'm worried about the navigation mynetx: Responsive CSS means that for desktop users, no difference is visible Marc9: mynetx you mean adapting the existing pmahomme? ruleant: navigation tree, I mean mynetx: I mean that. Navigation tree is something complex to solve nijel: responsive CSS would be indeed nicer, though it's probably more work mynetx: More comments from others? ibennetch: gah, I'm late mynetx: Don't worry, welcome Isaac. mynetx: We swapped Agenda 1 and 2. mynetx: Outsourcing mobile template as GSoC 2014 project—good or bad? Marc9: "template" is vague madhuracj: Sorry about the delay. I think mobile version is a good idea and agree that GSoC 2014 is indeed the way to go about it ruleant: I'm in favor to make it a GSoC project, but I'm not sure if it would fit the GSoC project timeframe mynetx: 3 months, it was? ruleant: yes, twelve weeks nijel: Also note that GSoC is about code and themes might be problematic here.. Marc9: It can be a subproject, like we did with Kasun mynetx: Question being, does Google Melange consider responsive CSS (media queries) "code"? Marc9: From the answers I got, no nijel: AFAIK this was discussed on mentors mailing list this year and generally the answer seemed to be no madhuracj: Maybe mentors can get a better clarrification at the mentor summit mynetx: When? Marc9: answers on the mentors mailing list mynetx: OK. Delaying this topic till November? Marc9: we can try to discuss this at the summit nijel: On the other side, I think that more changes will be needed than CSS... ibennetch: Sounds wise, we can get more clarification from the mentor summit and move forward after we know more zixtor: We can also discuss this on devel mailing list in longer term nijel: okay, let's postpone this mynetx: ruleant… ruleant: shouldn't we first know how we would make pma mobile-friendly? Marc9: Does someone on the team have experience with that? zixtor: maybe reducing number of features to just essential ones mynetx: zixtor: One approach, yes. Admins on phones/tablets, what do they want to administer? Good question. For our devel mailing list, I suggest. Marc9: Almost 1/3 of the hour spent on one topic mynetx: Yes. Hence my suggestion. ibennetch: But as a team we're all certain that we desire a mobile-ready version at some point? I think that's a good place to start, we can work through implementation details later ibennetch: https://wiki.phpmyadmin.net/pma/Mobile_version for instance zixtor: should we pass this topic to devel list? ibennetch: Yes, I agree we should move on nijel: yes, move on ruleant: ok : discussion postponed to devel-list or wiki ruleant: next point : conservancy ruleant: do we need a seperate bank account? Marc9: sub-question: do we plan to keep at least 3500$ in it? ibennetch: I don't see a need. Sounds like we'll lose out on the interest generated by our fund, if I'm recalling the email correctly, but that's rather insignificant IMHO nijel: I also don't see big need for this ruleant: i agree with isaac mynetx: Not sure if $3500 is about balance or income per timeframe mynetx: Interest is minor advantage compared to expenses for the account imo. ibennetch: My interpretation and standard US banking terms would tend to make that balance rather than income Marc9: Balance should be low if we continue physical team meetings nijel: indeed I'd prefer to spend money on useful things than keeping them on the account mynetx: Consense reached? ruleant: conclusion : no need for seperate account Marc9: ok for me nijel: ok madhuracj: ok zixtor: ok ruleant: next question, missionfish nijel: basically we can get it for free with just some publicity ruleant: but they take a % ibennetch: About MissionFish: I've never heard of it before, so I have no desire to accept donations through them. Sounds like a niche thing anyway, someone selling on ebay must elect to donate their sales revenue mynetx: How many people do? ibennetch: If someone wishes to donate, they may as well just give us money. Unless I'm severely missing the point mynetx: tbh I never heard of MissionFish nijel: the point is that you donate part of what you would have paid to ebay otherwise Marc9: nijel, did Conservancy tell you whether it works well for other projects? nijel: at least that's how I understood it ... though I've never heard about MissionFish so far as well nijel: Marc9: I did not ask, but I can ... so let's postpone this decision until we know more? ruleant: i didn't hear of it either, but I've seen similar setups Marc9: moving on? ruleant: SF.net has a charity option (% of a donation to a project going to a charity) mynetx: Does pma receive donations via SF? nijel: ruleant: they had, but they no longer process donations, they go directly through paypal ruleant: ok, next point : auto-updater mynetx: Makes sense imo - as seen in WP. Helps users to stay on top of the releases zixtor: Useful feature to have for those who have privileges.. nijel: useful feature, but I'm afraid it won't work on majority of installations due to privileges Marc9: As I already wrote, having the necessary privileges opens a security hole Marc9: and even suggesting to open this hole is not a good idea, IMO Marc9: we have to allocate our resources for features that will help a majority of users – zixtor se odpojil (Read error: Connection reset by peer) nijel: also we would have to do some sort of verification of updated version - probably by checking signature and signing our releases, otherwise it would be probably too easy to misuse ruleant: and for packaged versions of pma, this feature would be disabled ibennetch: What if we use FTP rather than direct file system access -- as long as the webserver is able to be accessed by FTP, we can upload new files without creating additional security risk (I think, anyway) Marc9: ruleant, you means distros Marc9: mean – zixtor se připojil do místnosti Marc9: ibennetch: the user's web server needs the write privilege nijel: ibennetch: FTP is even less secure (not encrypted passwords...) ruleant: both distro's and things like XAMPP, cPanel, ... mynetx: FTP upload to localhost should not be a problem imo, regarding passwords. ruleant: conclusion : no, because of security issues? madhuracj: Since we will have a very limited people using this feature with these constraints, is this still worth the effort? nijel: I think letting user know there is an update is enough, auto update is either too complex or too fragile from security POV madhuracj: Agreed Marc9: agreed zixtor: agreed, letting know is fine mynetx: I do see the difference, where WordPress admins are usually in control over their servers ibennetch: Ideally I think it would be a great feature, but from a practical aspect it's not worth the development effort to due security risks and most users not being able to use it anyway Marc9is in control of my servers but still does not want to give write privilege to the web server's process mynetx: Agreed with you. The cost:advantage factor in team devpower, and in % of users using the feature, is too low. ruleant: ok, next point : GSoC feedback Marc9: about GSoC, I don't see a big rush from our students to continue contributing ibennetch: GSoC was excellent for me this year. I have nothing special to report nor any changes to suggest for next year. nijel: I agree with Marc9, though it might be related to school start as well, it always takes some time... ibennetch: Part of that could be that the university term has started again ruleant: that, and they spent 3 months full time working on pma mynetx: Will we continue to increase our dev team each year with GSoC students? nijel: mynetx: that's IMHO best thing on GSoC ruleant: @mynetx : one of (our) objectives for GSoC is to attrack new developers... Marc9: mynetx the main goal is to increase the number of active team members ibennetch: I guess time will tell. We've had what I consider to be success in the past, so even if none of the students from 2013 continue with the project I still think it's worth participating. mynetx: Side-question: Who is Piotr Przybylski. He has write-access but I did not see anything in ages? Marc9: mynetx: see the credits in doc ruleant: GSoC student from 2008, 2010 and 2011 mynetx: OK marc9 thanks Marc9: I just asked him to help for a bug, he's working on it Marc9: I'll continue to ask for specific tasks from my two students, as I sometimes do from my past students nijel: btw: not sure if you've noticed it, but GSoC for next year has been already announced ruleant: I suggest to ask this year's GSoC students if they plan to contribute to pma madhuracj: Since most of them have expressed their interest when asked, probably we can ask them to fix bugs related to their code when they appear as a starting point nijel: I think it's good to keep in touch with them zixtor: I think we should give more attention to the "After GSoC" page.. zixtor: atleast for next year now Marc9: madhuracj, yes I'm already doing that Marc9: zixtor, what's missing on that page? ruleant: we're still waiting on some testimonials from previous GSoC students... zixtor: testimonials , which I also forgot to add.. madhuracj: madhuracj: I'll try to find time for that Marc9: ah right zixtor: I'll do that too Marc9: Supun told me that he wants to work on bugs ruleant: @ nijel, yes I noticed that GSoC 2014 is announced Marc9: The same with Bin Zu Marc9: so I'll feed them some bugs mynetx: Anything to mention on mentor summit? ruleant: OK, we could start making promotion for GSoC 2014 already, but I suggest to start this after the summit nijel: it's too early indeed Marc9: Before making promotion, we must prepare a list of ideas nijel: Marc9: I was just writing the same ruleant: @Marc9 and nijel, yes mynetx: Moving on? nijel: ok mynetx: Side note: I feel that 1hr per month is slightly short for the amount of ideas we got .) madhuracj: Can't agree more. ruleant: next point : serverfault.com nijel: mynetx: I think it will get better in future, right now there is simply too much madhuracj: But it was hard to find a time slot that suits us all Marc9: I could be available twice a month mynetx: marc9 agree++ Marc9: About serverfault, any objection to my suggestion? zixtor: none ibennetch: no, that seems reasonable mynetx: Should we talk about the 4.2 roadmap, please assign one of the ideas to me for working on it. Need to leave now... ruleant: good idea nijel: Marc9: it seems reasonable madhuracj: Yes, sounds good Marc9: but honestly I would not monitor these questions on serverfault mynetx: Serverfault questions can always be solved by any server-savvy people Marc9: anyway they are not directly related to our "mission" mynetx: Solved? Marc9: ok I'll prepare the changes on the support page ruleant: ok, thanks marc ruleant: next point : audio notification nijel: I find it annoying Marc9: good bye mynetx madhuracj: I also find it quite annoying Marc9: yes, me too, quite annoying zixtor: me too mynetx: SQL queries won't take longer than few seconds, so where is the point of not waiting? Marc9: I had to try it mynetx: Also, my sound is disabled anyways. Marc9: ok, nijel, can you close this pull request? nijel: okay, will close it ruleant: I only see the point for very long queries or imports Marc9: moving on? ruleant: next point : roadmap mynetx: audio: Got an idea. Will work on a pull request sometime this week. (Changing favicon if focus lost and query done, changing back on focus back.) nijel: the error reporting is not working (not reporting to the server), not sure if this is a blocker mynetx: Feedback from the student? nijel: I've reported to the bugtracker only so far... Marc9: Can the main mentor contact the student? zixtor: Yes, we should notify him.. ruleant: main mentor is not here. ruleant: But I'll do it nijel: okay, thanks ruleant mynetx: Let's set up -beta1 to next weekend, so there is 10 days to get that sorted? Marc9: Also, do you see (like I do sometimes) messages from this module at screen bottom? ruleant: what is the ID of the issue? nijel: https://sourceforge.net/p/phpmyadmin/bugs/4118/ nijel: but some others are imo also imporant: https://sourceforge.net/p/phpmyadmin/bugs/4113/ Marc9: mynetx, you forget GSoC summit nijel: Marc9: so let's leave it to week(end) after summit Marc9: so I would prefer in 7 days (but IMO this problem is not a blocker) mynetx: Agreed too. nijel: if we want to have this feature in 4.1 it should get some testing during betas, though it can probably wait for beta2 Marc9: madhuracj as the bugs coordinator, anything to say about blockers? mynetx: ruleant and others: Do we want to add 10 minutes for the trademark topic? zixtor: Fine by me Marc9: ok nijel: ok madhuracj: @Marc: I did not see any major blockers. But will take time to go throught them again and let you all know ruleant: 10 minutes, fine by me mynetx: Some public data for the error reporting would be helpful methinks. mynetx: I need to leave, please discuss the last topic without me. nijel: okay, bye mynetx zixtor: bye mynetx ibennetch: I have plenty of time today ruleant: @mynetx, what do you mean by public data? nijel: probably some real reports on the server? Marc9: madhuracj: ok, it will become more important at the release candidate stage nijel: so what about trademark? ruleant: so, at what point do we create a seperate branch? And when do we block updates to strings? Marc9: we should follow the advice of the Conservancy who are in favor Marc9: ruleant: at rc1 I guess nijel: ruleant, Marc9: rc1 sounds good, though we should not do any big changes now as well Marc9: master is feature frozen ibennetch: I think we should register the trademark. Marc9: let's discuss trademarks nijel: I think we should register trademark as well, any objections? ibennetch: If nothing else, it will protect us in the future from someone else registering and trying to force us to change our name ruleant: to summarize : master feature frozen and no big changes until rc1, then strings are frozen in the new branch ruleant: registering is a good idea ibennetch: Plus it will allow Conservancy to better protect the brand if there's a problem. We can further discuss how liberal to be with other projects Marc9: Note that it's "only" in the USA nijel: yes, trademark policy is another big topic, but let's ignore it for now ibennetch: For instance, I don't see a problem with "phpPgAdmin" nijel: ibennetch: and what about phpMoAdmin? ruleant: I don't have a problem with phpMoAdmin zixtor: What if someone out of USA uses our name ? nijel: okay, we seem to agree on this as well madhuracj: Me neither ruleant: I do have a problem with websites who pose as phpMyAdmin Marc9: zixtor, this trademark registration is only for the USA zixtor: Marc9, right, it's difficult to have it worldwide ruleant: and having phpMyAdmin trademarked, can help us there Marc9: zixtor, and costly ruleant: @zixtor : especially, time and moneyconsuming madhuracj: @ruleant: are there any such site online currently zixtor: right ibennetch: We may wish to see what Tony at Conservancy advises, too, as far as how much to allow other projects to use a similar name. Marc9: madhuracj, phpmyadmin.org and .com ibennetch: Perhaps Conservancy can offer some help with the international problem ibennetch: Have we approached the .org and .com owner to see whether they're willing to sell to us? Marc9: ibennetch, price tag seems to start at 30K USD nijel: I'll have to leave now... Marc9has to leave to ruleant: bye michal madhuracj: Bye Michal nijel: bye ibennetch: 30k is way out of line ibennetch: bye ibennetch: thanks for sticking around later than planned ruleant: @ibennetcg, yes the question is how much legal action would cost to get those domains... ruleant: thanks, guys for attending, see you next month ibennetch: So just to summarize the trademark issue, I believe we all were in favor of US registration, with the suggestion to reach out to Conservancy for advise on worldwide protections ibennetch: ruleant: good point ibennetch: And I'd add perhaps also see what Conservancy thinks about .com and .org ibennetch: I suspect these are common problems across many of their projects, so they probably have some advice ruleant: ok, I'll add it to the report ibennetch: By the way, thanks for taking over with running the meeting since I got held up ruleant: no problem, you can do it next time...