Add manifesto document #3

Etiene · 2018-03-14T12:14:28Z

Adds first public draft of the foundation's manifesto

Etiene · 2018-03-14T12:15:46Z

documents/manifesto.md

@@ -0,0 +1,28 @@
+# The Lua Users Foundation Manifesto
+
+The Lua Users Foundation (the Foundation) is an association of individuals in a modular umbrella structure consisted of several workgroups, detailed in the Lua Users Foundation Constitution.


The constitution document will be drafted in the future.

NB: PR comments are the same thing as in-document comments --- as they become much less visible once PR is merged

agladysh · 2018-03-14T14:06:25Z

documents/manifesto.md

+ * To support and foster critical projects such as Lua libraries (modules) and frameworks ecosystems.
+ * To support and foster the Lua community.
+ * To encourage wider adoption of Lua programming language in the world.
+ * To be a lasting organisation generating positive impact to those writing software in Lua.


organiZation (I suggest we adopt US English)

agladysh · 2018-03-14T14:07:47Z

documents/manifesto.md

@@ -0,0 +1,28 @@
+# The Lua Users Foundation Manifesto


I would add a note that this document is a draft and not yet normative

I didn't add that because the fact that it is an unmerged PR is already indicating that it is a draft

I suggest to add and merge (after review). Unmerged PRs are less visible (and are harder to create a PR against).

Please elaborate the question.

A merged PR is not a PR anymore 🤔

I still do not understand.

Okay, I understood what you mean

Etiene, please add "Draft" to the document, then it'll be merged. After that, others will make PRs with changes related to this document

catwell · 2018-03-14T14:12:51Z

documents/manifesto.md

@@ -0,0 +1,28 @@
+# The Lua Users Foundation Manifesto
+
+The Lua Users Foundation (the Foundation) is an association of individuals in a modular umbrella structure consisted of several workgroups, detailed in the Lua Users Foundation Constitution.


s/consisted/consisting/

catwell · 2018-03-14T14:13:22Z

documents/manifesto.md

+# The Lua Users Foundation Manifesto
+
+The Lua Users Foundation (the Foundation) is an association of individuals in a modular umbrella structure consisted of several workgroups, detailed in the Lua Users Foundation Constitution.
+The Foundation formal decision-making process is governed by the Lua Users Foundation Constitution, according to the Foundation Goals and Values, towards our Mission.


s/Foundation/Foundation's/

The Foundation formal decision-making process

oh thanks, good catch

agladysh · 2018-03-14T14:19:03Z

Unless we want to squash the pull request history, I suggest to more carefully write commit messages, so the public will be able to get a better idea what happened and if they must to pay careful attention to the change. E.g. not "updated manifesto", but rather "fixed typos in manifesto".

Etiene · 2018-03-14T14:24:11Z

@agladysh I was thinking squashing it, which is why I wasn't too careful about that

agladysh · 2018-03-14T14:29:05Z

@Etiene As long as we wouldn't lose the discussion here by squashing, I have no problem with that. (I keep confusing GitLab and GitHub behavior in that regard.)

catwell · 2018-03-14T14:49:25Z

documents/manifesto.md

+
+  * The Lua programming language is developed by the Lua Team and defined by the Lua Programming Manual. Furthermore:
+  * The Lua programming language is small, fast, easy to learn and use. 
+  * The Lua programming language philosophy is less is more.


I would write:

The Lua programming language philosophy is: "Less is more".

Also I am not sure if this is not controversial...

I like your phrasing. It probably is somewhat controversial, yes. But it is the original philosophy of Lua and I think we should strive not to deviate from that.

I think the philosophy of lua is better described as "mechanism, not policy"

I think the philosophy of lua is better described as "mechanism, not policy"

Finally found a good citation from the lua team. https://www.lua.org/wshop13/Ierusalimschy.pdf see 2nd last page.

Many thanks!

catwell · 2018-03-14T14:50:21Z

documents/manifesto.md

+## The Values
+
+  * The Lua programming language is developed by the Lua Team and defined by the Lua Programming Manual. Furthermore:
+  * The Lua programming language is small, fast, easy to learn and use. 


Not sure if this line and the previous one make sense here. They are facts not values, and concern the Lua language not the Foundation.

This line is there to state our position in the "is LuaJIT Lua?" controversy

OK, it makes sense.

catwell · 2018-03-14T14:51:39Z

documents/manifesto.md

+## The Goals
+
+ * To aid the Lua Team and the Lua programming language implementers.
+ * To support and foster critical projects such as Lua libraries (modules) and frameworks ecosystems.


s/frameworks ecosystems/framework ecosystems/

... I think. :)

I think frameworks ecosystems is the correct! :)

I think catwell is correct here

framework ecosystems or ecosystems of frameworks (less wieldy and with the same meaning).

RyanSquared · 2018-03-14T16:40:56Z

Suggestion to have a contribution guideline for documentation, to keep lines around 80 characters? This would improve how GitHub displays reviews, breaking paragraphs into separate distinct lines that can be reviewed, and can properly display everything on-screen - we can always scroll down, but we can't always scroll right.

Etiene · 2018-03-14T16:45:27Z

@RyanSquared sure, I can cap this document at 80 characters per line. Would you like to make a PR for a contribution guideline file that mentions this?

RyanSquared · 2018-03-14T17:13:37Z

Sure, that'd be helpful, thanks. 👍

I'll go draft a PR for a contributing guidelines in a bit.

agladysh · 2018-03-30T17:41:56Z

@Etiene Is anything blocking on finishing this PR and merging it to master?

daurnimator · 2018-03-30T22:40:08Z

documents/manifesto.md

+
+## The Values
+
+  * The Lua programming language is developed by the Lua Team and defined by the Lua Programming Manual. Furthermore:


Should clarify on what the language is. Is it the language as described in the manual? Or is it the reference implementation?

This is a difficult question, which will block the development of the manifesto. I say that one of the goals of the LUF is to make this point officially clarified by the Lua Team

There were many discussions on that point with Roberto on previous Lua in Moscow. Please refer to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdRGOE1N-FA&list=PLTHTttj90_1mdhrKc-H5apZWoVIXmkhcN (in English), especially second and third talks.

@Etiene's comment at #3 (comment) implies that we've already selected an answer to this question.
As far as I know, LuaJIT is compliant to the lua 5.1 manual.
Which then implies that "the lua language" in this paragraph is intended to be the reference implementation; not what is described in the manual.

I do not follow, sorry. This item clearly states that the Lua language is whatever that is developed (as a language) by the Lua Team and defined by the Manual. No?

I agree that this is a difficult question. I would rather make a decision, even if it is a political decision, with the understanding that we can update this manifesto at a later point.

daurnimator · 2018-03-30T22:41:36Z

documents/manifesto.md

+## The Goals
+
+ * To aid the Lua Team and the Lua programming language implementers.
+ * To support and foster critical projects such as Lua libraries (modules) and frameworks ecosystems.


I think catwell is correct here

eliasdaler · 2018-03-31T09:16:45Z

documents/manifesto.md

+  * The Lua programming language is developed by the Lua Team and defined by the Lua Programming Manual. Furthermore:
+  * The Lua programming language is small, fast, easy to learn and use. 
+  * The Lua programming language philosophy is less is more.
+  * The Lua ecosystem is diverse, it includes many libraries, frameworks, implementations, dialects and related languages.


"The Lua ecosystem is diverse: it includes many libraries, frameworks, implementations, dialects and related languages."
Note the ":"

eliasdaler · 2018-03-31T09:18:05Z

documents/manifesto.md

+  * The Lua community is inclusive. We welcome and encourage participation by everyone. We are committed to foster a diverse community with respect of personal characteristics such as, but not limited to, gender identity or expression, sexual orientation, ethnicity, age, religion, disability, class, geographic location, background and experience.
+  * Lua and related technologies should have wider adoption in the world.
+  * The Lua Users Foundation is a transparent and not for profit endeavour. 
+  * The Lua Users Foundation values simplicity and accessibility (easy to learn and use) in our work.


Maybe it should be moved closer to "less is more" point. Or maybe they should be merged together somehow.

You're welcome to create a pull request with suggested edits.

eliasdaler · 2018-03-31T09:20:02Z

documents/manifesto.md

+
+## The Goals
+
+ * To aid the Lua Team and the Lua programming language implementers.


In "The Mission" section you didn't start sentences with "To". Maybe here we don't need it as well? (and in the next bullet points too)

eliasdaler · 2018-03-31T09:21:26Z

documents/manifesto.md

+## The Goals
+
+ * To aid the Lua Team and the Lua programming language implementers.
+ * To support and foster critical projects such as Lua libraries (modules) and frameworks ecosystems.


I'd suggest to replace "critical" to "important". "Critical" is something that people can't live without, and you can survive without Lua libs/frameworks for a long time. :)

Wouldn't change the ambiguity. One need to define what is "critical" or "important" somewhere in the documents to work around that problem. Also, there are different degrees of critical (mission critical, life critical etc.), so the implication is less severe here, IMO.

eliasdaler · 2018-03-31T09:24:41Z

documents/manifesto.md

+ * To support and foster critical projects such as Lua libraries (modules) and frameworks ecosystems.
+ * To support and foster the Lua community.
+ * To encourage wider adoption of Lua programming language in the world.
+ * To be a lasting organization generating positive impact to those writing software in Lua.


agladysh · 2018-04-02T05:20:47Z

@Etiene Please, let's go to merge

Etiene · 2018-04-04T21:28:16Z

@agladysh updated! please re-review

daurnimator · 2018-04-06T00:42:54Z

documents/manifesto.md

+   Lua Programming Manual. Furthermore:
+  * The Lua programming language is small, fast, easy to learn and use.
+  * The Lua programming language philosophy is:  "Mechanisms instead of
+  policies".


formatting nit: there are two spaces before the quote.

daurnimator · 2018-04-06T00:43:48Z

documents/manifesto.md

+
+## The Goals
+
+ * Aid the Lua Team and the Lua programming language implementers.


remove the 2nd 'the'?

Not sure, let someone with a better sense of English comment

daurnimator · 2018-04-06T00:44:07Z

documents/manifesto.md

+
+ * Aid the Lua Team and the Lua programming language implementers.
+ * Support and foster critical projects such as Lua libraries (modules) and
+ framework ecosystems.


Remove 'ecosystems'?

It is an important word, I think. Let's postpone until a second revision.

daurnimator · 2018-04-06T00:44:27Z

documents/manifesto.md

+ * Aid the Lua Team and the Lua programming language implementers.
+ * Support and foster critical projects such as Lua libraries (modules) and
+ framework ecosystems.
+ * Support and foster the Lua community.


Could we avoid repeating "support and foster"?

Please suggest how to rephrase. Let's postpone until a second revision.

agladysh · 2018-04-06T06:23:23Z

LGTM

Create manifesto.md

f139c02

Etiene added Founding decisions Founding documents labels Mar 14, 2018

Etiene commented Mar 14, 2018

View reviewed changes

agladysh requested changes Mar 14, 2018

View reviewed changes

Update manifesto.md

06095e3

catwell reviewed Mar 14, 2018

View reviewed changes

daurnimator suggested changes Mar 30, 2018

View reviewed changes

eliasdaler reviewed Mar 31, 2018

View reviewed changes

manifesto.md: Address suggestions

942ce0b

daurnimator reviewed Apr 6, 2018

View reviewed changes

		@@ -0,0 +1,28 @@
		# The Lua Users Foundation Manifesto

		The Lua Users Foundation (the Foundation) is an association of individuals in a modular umbrella structure consisted of several workgroups, detailed in the Lua Users Foundation Constitution.


		## The Values

		* The Lua programming language is developed by the Lua Team and defined by the Lua Programming Manual. Furthermore:


		## The Goals

		* To aid the Lua Team and the Lua programming language implementers.


		## The Goals

		* Aid the Lua Team and the Lua programming language implementers.

Add manifesto document #3

Are you sure you want to change the base?

Add manifesto document #3

Conversation

Etiene commented Mar 14, 2018

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

agladysh Mar 14, 2018 • edited

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

agladysh commented Mar 14, 2018

Etiene commented Mar 14, 2018

agladysh commented Mar 14, 2018 • edited

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Etiene Mar 14, 2018 • edited

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

RyanSquared commented Mar 14, 2018

Etiene commented Mar 14, 2018 • edited

RyanSquared commented Mar 14, 2018 • edited

agladysh commented Mar 30, 2018

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

agladysh commented Apr 2, 2018

Etiene commented Apr 4, 2018

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

agladysh commented Apr 6, 2018

agladysh Mar 14, 2018 •

edited

agladysh commented Mar 14, 2018 •

edited

Etiene Mar 14, 2018 •

edited

Etiene commented Mar 14, 2018 •

edited

RyanSquared commented Mar 14, 2018 •

edited