Zen Cart is Dead

[torvista]

That was just an attention-grabbing headline.

Now my opinion, primarily from a business user point of view, to poke a stick in things.
This has been on my mind for a long time and so now I'm venting.

I do not want to port my business to another cart/I do not want to see my investment in ZC go down the toilet/I do not want the learning curve of tinkering with another platform.
I know the inbuilt functionality is good and the quality of the code contributed is second to none.

But.

Yes that is a big but.
I see absolutely no effort made to reverse the decline of the market share. I see maintenance and nothing else.
Since admin ZC calls home to check for updates, there should be logs that reflect the current situation, the rate of decline/increase of user base, and the geolocation of users. That information would be of interest.

Certain things seem clear to me.

1. Open source needs contributors to progress.
   The contributors to ZC are in single figures and reducing.
   Progress is not bugfixes and php compatibility.
   Progress is an expanding user base, more contributors and more functionality.

Contributors come from
a) pro developers who are tasked with maintenance of legacy shops.
b) users tinkering
Out of both groups, the people who may contribute (their own time) as opposed to doing what they need to for themselves is a fraction of those that may exist.
So, whichever way you look at it, many new users are needed to get few new contributors.

2. Getting new users interested
   Seems like stating the obvious, but the project needs many new users, now.

How to do that?
You have to convince a user to try ZC. If they don’t try, they don’t buy.
New users know nothing. They will look at what everyone else uses (can’t control that), and maybe compare functionality: that can be controlled.

ZC offers most of what people need…but they don’t know that.
ZC needs to offer what new users think they need and what they think they want, and what all the other shops offer INSIDE THE BOX, or they will never get to point of trying it.
Never mind that friendly urls are not necessary (still??), people think they need them, other shops have them baked in, ZC has to do the same.
There are basic things like structured data, cookie control, GDPR, image management, then variant/attribute stock, product kits, and whatever else the others offer by default. You have to compete on the feature list, not from a developer criteria but from giving people what they think they want or explaining clearly why not or how to get it.

New users may not know what the features are, but they can see when they are missing.
Listing a pile of plugins in various places and various states of decomposition is useless for a new user, everything has to be on a plate if you want to compete.

Some developers here are experienced with other carts…that knowledge of the pros of ZC and the cons of other carts is priceless/very hard to find and should be used on the ZC site to convince people to try it.

3. Trying Zen Cart
   Convincing a user to try, is I think, most of the battle. So as much effort as possible should be aimed at that objective, and making the install perfect.
   I believe auto-installs (Scriptaculous etc.) should be promoted for easy try-outs. I know they absolutely should not be used for production sites, but I am talking about promoting try-outs with zero hassle.
   The first problem a new user has will probably be the last as they move to something easier.
   Is ZC still included in these auto-installs that hostings offer?

4. Roadmap
   Development is apparently random, based on php warnings and whatever someone has come across today. Fire-fighting. Which is not development at all.

It should be based on all the above rant, for the single, primary reason of getting more users.

Note that this post is based on the desire to see ZC succeed as deserved. There needs to be a plan of focussed actions.

Or the project is dead.

[g2ktcf]

Steve,

I am not a pro at anything and I have not had time to participate actively here. I sort of nibble at the corners (mc12345678 knows this well lol) I am really just a user with an active store that I personally maintain (still at 1.5.7c as I have not had the time to dig through 1.5.7d)

I know ZC is a pain to set up and upgrade. For me, I do not like "canned" solutions as they never seem to match my business requirements or work flows. So I accept the pain gladly. So many others will not. So for me, the question becomes 1) how to make this easy for those folks who would want the canned version and 2) how to keep the plugin structure so we can modify as needed especially when it comes to visual design and templates.

I do not know if this helps the discussion but I DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE PLATFORMS.

Chris

[g2ktcf]

Steve,

So if there were a roadmap to change and incorporate features into the core, what features would you consider to be needed? Would something like a Linux Distro where where different options are packaged and tested together for those who "just want to install" and go work? Just sort of thinking out loud.

[torvista]

I think you are missing my point.

I am not demanding anything goes into core. I am one shop owner with an inevitably narrow perspective.
Over the years multiple attempts have been made to flesh out a wish-list etc. that have all petered out to nothing in off-topic discussions. That "democracy" does not work.
The developers who work here are far better-informed as to what the majority want. But they are still dealing with current users, not new ones.

I am making the point that the project desperately needs new blood, so a focus should be made to that end...and in my view what should be in the box should be determined by what the competition offers and what new users what they (think) they want, to get them in through the door.

Ecommerce has just exploded thanks to Covid. Is there any evidence of that growth explosion here...?

[g2ktcf]

"and in my view what should be in the box should be determined by what the competition offers and what new users what they (think) they want, to get them in through the door."

This is more inline with what I was thinking when I replied.

[g2ktcf]

And I fully agree BTW. So since we do not have an explosion in new users, where are they going and why? Hard question but it bears saying.

[torvista]

This page although in spain, shows trends for global and spain.
https://comunica-web.com/blog/marketing-digital/plataformas-ecommerce/

I would say Prestashop and Open Cart compete with ZC for the same type of user, but again, what do I know.
Perhaps someone more knowledgeable will chime in at some point.

[g2ktcf]

A cursory review of "pros and cons" of various platforms is interesting. The top three Pros seem to be:

1. Easy To Set Up
2. Good for Small and Simple online stores
3. Visually Attractive/Stunning Template Designs
4. Fast loading

security, payments, and price all seem to take a backseat.

[lat9]

How about we start with a list of features that should be included in the base installation that might entice new users?

Here's a list of current suggestions; I'm sure that there are more:

• [Suggestion] Add keepcart type functionality #2576
• [Suggestion] Add Instant Search to the core?  #2656
• [Suggestion] Add IP Blocker? #2669
• [Suggestion] Pull Dual Pricing into the core #2678
• [Suggestion] Guest Checkout into core #2689
• [Suggestion] Edit Email default text from Admin #2695
• Products with Quantity Discounts that are also on sale #2807
• Add: shipping boxes "fit" algorithm for shipping modules to use #2934
• [Suggestion] Incorporate Structured Data #3000
• Product Qty Units and Product Qty Minimum #3342
• Country Limitations: allow separate rules for billing vs shipping #3649

[torvista]

I have voiced my concern and opinion.
Thinking about what to add to ZC is the developer solution that has failed multiple times. That is not the way forward.

1. First comes a discussion of the problem I have opined about. What do others think, and what are the facts, as opposed to just my opinion?
   A problem has to be identified and agreed on before going any further.

2. Is there a willingness to address the problem, by the contributors who will have to donate their time and efforts, based on a plan of action?

[lat9]

That was me, just collecting the features previously requested, since I thought that one of discussion points was how to 'entice' new users and the feature-set is one of the things that a new cart-user is going to look for ... essentially, how "drop-in" to suit the needs of the 80% should Zen Cart be?

[dbltoe]

All good choices. I would add Dynamic Price Updater to the list.

[g2ktcf]

So let me just think out loud for a moment. Below are my long drawn out thoughts, but the short version of everything below is this:

ZC is basically a group of developers. We need a more diverse team to drive ZC into the future. Marketing? None. UI development? Little unless its a paid service. Nothing is really being done to make ZC easy...Easy is the number one reason people choose a platform (please prove me wrong on any point!)

So here are the rest of my thoughts that got way out of hand...please feel free to stop here.

Is it actually FEATURES that attracts a new user? My short list above suggests this is not the case. I am in the middle of getting my MBA and I am going to push back from the technical side and think about MOTIVATIONS to use a specific eCommerce platform.

1. They want an easy install button ->lets be frank, there is nothing easy about installing or upgrading ZC.
2. They want the user interfaces to be amazing -> I really do not see any UI designers/developers left here. I even posted about the forum's activity level a year or so back. The community is now tiny. We need developers that continue to push UI design. The only thing we are looking at in that is in the realm is accessibility. Boot Strap fits that perfectly -> But there is NOTHING VISUALLY STUNNING about it (not trying to be negative, just trying to be real guys)
3. Good for small shops - What does this mean to you? Is this a rich feature list in the core?

My research was only cursory. So what else are users and adopters looking for when they say "I want a online store". It took lots of convincing to get my wife to leave BigCartel and its $30/month fee. Why? Her answers all fall into three items above. Quite frankly, in ZC's current form, the store is made to give site developers a tool get customers. The average user is not coming here.

So with all of those thoughts, what is the path forward?

1. I think we need to attract more developers and I have no idea HOW (please help!)
2. I honestly think we need multiple versions. One basic feature rich model with items in the core that hosts can install/upgrade.
3. For this simple version, upgrading cannot be "get a compare program and go line by line" Normal users will not do this.
4. We still have a need for what we currently have so I see this as a different branch/package.
5. We need to market ZC. Any marketers here? No. How do we attract these types to the cause?
6. Everyone here is a volunteer. Why are each of YOU here? Are you monetizing the development of sites for customers? Are you here solely in a altruistic "I want to help others". For me, if others are SELLING AND PROFITING OFF ZC, then the team should be compensated period. And to be quite honest, I have no clue if money will even help the problem.
7. Each corporation/business has a set of guiding principles and goals. Why is ZC here? Why did it split from osCommerce? What are the goals of ZC?

[torvista]

Easy is the number one reason people choose a platform

"Choice" is made after trying out alternatives.
That is step two in the new user process.
If they never try it in the first place, "choice" or "easy" does not even enter into the equation.

[g2ktcf]

Very good point Steve.

[g2ktcf]

making it EASY to try is also very important which goes back to one of your original points.

[g2ktcf]

https://www.merchantmaverick.com/reviews/zen-cart-review/

Found this today. I do not know the site nor the author. I was just looking for reviews on Zencart.

[g2ktcf]

Steve has brought up very valid points that I think cannot be avoided. So I want to push one question to the front of the line.

Does anyone have any good comparisons of eCommerce solutions? It would wise in my opinion to see what is pulling in new users. Is there a website that is US based (and one for the UK) that shows the number and types of eCommerce stores that are out there?

[simon1066]

On a first look Web Almanac seems to be a comprehensive source. Their report on Ecommerce platforms is at https://almanac.httparchive.org/en/2021/ecommerce

Simon

[g2ktcf]

On a first look Web Almanac seems to be a comprehensive source. Their report on Ecommerce platforms is at https://almanac.httparchive.org/en/2021/ecommerce

Simon

Steve mentioned Prestashop as being a prime competitor. Anyone familiar with what Prestashop as to offer vs ZC? This is a strong clue to follow.

Chris

[GerriFM]

FWIW and to answer @torvista and @g2ktcf questions, I thought you'd like some comments and suggestions from a Zen Cart user who looked at all the options on the market (including Prestashop) but instead chose Zen Cart.

To summarise, Zen Cart's biggest competitive advantage is encapsulated by Action 3 below: its ability to appeal to three types of website customers. However, at the moment it is best designed for, presented as, and so marketed to target the Coders (described in Action 2). I'm not suggesting losing that, just a revamping so it appeals to all 3 customer types.

By way of introduction since I'm a first-time commenter on this Github website, I'm not a trained code developer (so I'm very grateful for you Zen Cart team of professionals). Instead I'm teaching myself - very carefully - using this terrific Zen Cart platform and with your capable help. However, I do have a marketing and industry development background (state-level in Queensland, Australia so think big for the industry while thinking small to address individual business' priorities and concerns) so the excellent questions posed by @torvista touched a nerve for me. The need for active and effective marketing is crucial to the long-term survival of the Zen Cart Business. And that means promoting Zen Cart's competitive advantages. However, @torvista rightly also asks for suggestions of concrete actions on how to address this. So, here are some possible actions for your consideration. Apologies if my suggestions are unrealistic or has been raised before (or are already in place): just trying to think laterally.

The review provided by @g2ktcf shows that Zen Cart is being seen by the industry as a highly effective platform. However, Zen Cart's absence in the Web Almanac article means that message is not reaching potential customers.

Looking back at that review, it reveals 2 main areas where Zen Cart MUST improve before it can even think to compete more effectively in the marketplace:

(a) Zen Cart scores low in web design. The comment is very telling and, for me, is the main reason why I would have gone elsewhere - if I hadn't been up for the challenge to give it a more modern look by applying a Zen Cart template plugin. And let's face it, many customers are not so willing. That quote FYI: "Zen Cart is not known for being an aesthetically pleasing shopping cart solution in its admin or its storefront."

ACTION 1: From what I understand, the Zen Cart Roadmap includes plans to modernise Zen Cart. So if v1.5.7d is not there yet, that should be given a priority (I think that's v1.5.8?). And if it is there now, the improved version has to be actively marketed. See Actions below (I can't answer that question myself since I'm working in an earlier version of ZC getting my mods in order before upgrading).

ACTION 2: The Zen Cart website needs revamping. If I was a potential new user & visited the Zen Cart website, upfront, I'm asked to download code. That would scare many people off before they even had a chance to see what other CAs the platform has. So, as Zen Cart website redesign is warranted to make it more appealing to a potential customer (assuming that there will be two distinct types of customers: (a) the people like me who are money-poor but up for a coding challenge (call them 'Coders') and (b) the people who want it all handed to them on a plate and are willing to pay for it (call them 'Non-coders'). I think Non-coders make up the majority of potential customers. However, Action 3 takes care of both types.

ACTION 3: The Zen Cart website needs to be revamped so that it has two - or even better 3 - upfront clear & separated pathways, each with separate goals to appeal to either the Coders or the Non-coders. Eg. On the first page,
(A) click here for complete DIY, or
(B) click here for DIY BUT I need help. Maybe help with installation, maybe with coding,or
(C) click here for a quote for a customer-built website created for me that looks like some of the ones that are shown in the showcase. That would give you a competitive advantage over Prestashop (have a look at their website). A quoting option is currently on the website but it needs to be there on the first page: if a Non-coder customer doesn't see it upfront, they will look elsewhere. NOTE: It would also provide more opportunities for those of the Zen Cart team who wish to drum up business. So that is good for the long-term sustainability of the Zen Cart team.

ACTION 4: If Action 3(C) happens, it is imperative that any quoting system is managed in a fair, equitable - and most of all - transparent way by an independent party who is not in the business of quoting coding services. My industry development experience has shown that without that, a system is doomed in the longer term.

ACTION 5: Add more options in the showcase that have give people more variety and, most importantly, that look modern. (My personal favourite template is Responsive Sheffield Blue).

(b) Zen Cart scores low in ease of use. I think this stems from the fact that the dashboard is set up for the two types of people on the one page: Coders & Non-coders. Non-coders get confused by all the Coder functionality.

ACTION 6: To address this, could the the dashboard be revamped so that it can be simplified for the Non-coders but still retain the Coder functionality? Is it possible to, say, have two display options whereby you click a button & the Coder menus are displayed Otherwise, only the Non-coder website 'operator' menu options are displayed. Just throwing the idea out there...

ACTION 7 IMO, this is one of the most important actions: @lat9 proposal, and @dbltoe addition, of adding key plugins to the standard Zen Cart offering is imperative to action. And may I suggest adding as standard some modern looks such as the templates. Incorporating these are key to making the platform effective and flexible. This is needed to maintain Zen Carts' already-identified strengths

  What do you think? Happy to join in on any further discussions & to help where I can.

If you're interested in what I found as ZenCart's competitive advantage in my situation read on. If not, I'd like to say a very big thank you to all the Zen Cart team for your dedication. Please know that your efforts are appreciated by the likes of me and many other mostly silent Zenners.

Zen Cart's biggest competitive advantages for me was:
(1) the flexibility i.e. the ability for me to create a website that was specialised to suit my specific and complicated website needs. Not just the airy-fairy changes like changing colour but an ability to enable it to do more complicated processing. If you're interested, read the last paragraph.
(2) the cost:

• We are a small business and have to keep costs down. So I selected Zen Cart over the other platforms. Any remember, there are way more small businesses out there than large businesses with their own coding experts. So more potential customers
• If we have more available cash, I would still choose Zen Cart over the other platforms because of its flexibility & features. To be honest I would just employ one of you experts to take over from me so that the website could actually get up & running.

(3) the features. While I disagree with you there, @g2ktcf, you are completely right regarding the need for easy installation (hopefully Action 3 addresses that. I do need the features provided by the plugins to provide the functionality I need. So I'm frankly very excited to see @lat9 and @dbltoe suggesting they be added to the standard offering. I could add some more suggestions if you decide to go that way.

The website I am building (a long term project slowed down by my coding inexperience) sells historical items such as Roman archeological pieces. Some of these pieces are weapons, for example, old BC & early AD rusted blades. So I am putting systems in place to manage who I sell to depending on where they live and what laws apply (e.g. customers age needs to be check [some states have no age restriction or restrictions of either 16 years or 18 years; in other states you need a licence] . I'm making sure I'm doing it right - which is why its taking so long. Getting there slowly.
NOTE: I had installed SQUARE and was ready to launch the website - but then SQUARE refused to allow me to use their system. They gave no reason when I asked and gave me no chance to appeal their decision. Just disallowed our website to use their system. Very disappointing.

[GerriFM]

BTW, My Zencart username is GerriM

[g2ktcf]

The features list has always been VERY specific to the the main use of the site. I have my own list of features that I think belong in core...but my sites are pure retail. I need solid IMAGE support. I need an easy way of checking out including guest. I need to upload products. I need better shipping support. For me,

• Image Handler
• EZ Populate
• One Page Checkout
• Need to export orders to other platforms (missing)
• Need to synchronize inventory between differing platforms (missing)

@lat9 I actually liked your list BTW. I can make business arguments for many of them.

But does everyone need the same set? And whom am I to even say that they SHOULD be in core (OPC and Image Handler are a must in my opinion). NOW, I can say with 100% certainty that the current override system is a huge plus. Combined with the notifier system, you can literally do ANYTHING. I do believe that @torvista also said that the tech folks here are SECOND TO NONE! And I fully agree (no, I am not one of those folks either)

@torvista mentioned previously that democratically putting in new features has been tried and failed. I fully agree as most here are programmers. What we need is MARKET research to support what to include in core and what should be Plugin. I mentioned the UI as well and I think this is a major issue. But I have had some outside input on sites that are very...well the word used was "pretty" lol...but had nothing else to really offer.

@GerriFM what you brought you here is greatly appreciated. I am going to make a post on the forums to see if I can glen some more insight on what brought others here as well.

The synopsis of everything I have read and seen so far is this. We need a market driven roadmap for the future of ZC. Without it, as @torvista said, Zencart is dead. And for what it is worth, I personally think that there should be different versions of ZC. But without new blood here in all phases, I think we are fighting a uphill battle.

[g2ktcf]

So, I went to play with Prestashop's Demo today. The site is modern. The demo store on that site is simple and appealing. The admin is awesome from what I see. So much is different in the admin. Ours really looks dated compared to that demo.

Install is the same as ZC. Download, Create Database, Copy files, run install...

[GerriFM]

I didn't get that far. What I did yesterday was view PS vs ZC websites & try to look with the eyes of a 'Non-coder with the need for a more complicated solution'; a potential new customer taking their first dive to willow down my list of so many platforms. My searches would have brought up the 2 articles including the review you provided. Then I would have visited the websites.

And there, the sleekness of the PS website with its no-fuss option 'in my face' would have won me over hands down over ZC.

[torvista]

I was hoping to see more interest in this, maybe the pros and project manager are happy that there is more than enough work in supporting ZC to see them past retirement so no need to get stressed/comment about it?

Throughout my time with zen cart (11 years+), I have often found myself assuming things, ostensibly having a conversation with myself as a response from the top was rarely forthcoming. Subsequently these rants came to nought.

So, I assume yet again, that all this has been obvious for a very long time, and thought about, and discussed in private and maybe reached the decision that are no people nor money available to do all that needs doing, so let’s just keep it alive for the current users.
Without input, one can only assume and continue this discussion in a semi-vacuum. Shame, as a real, positive discussion here, when found by a new user who is wondering whether Zen Cart is dead, will do a damn sight more good than a flashy website to encourage a new user.

I’ve waited to see the responses and I fully understand and appreciate the huge amount of time it takes compose the long answers that have so far appeared. So good for those who responded.

If asked, what would be my take on this project, you have to bear in mind what is possible now, with the few active people that there are. Making small tasks for people of all abilities, interests, time and enthusiasm to choose from is crucial.
A grand plan will come to naught again. Small steps, small tasks and don’t be afraid to ask the community for help. Most users never set a finger in GitHub and have no idea that what goes on here, they think the ZC forum is where things get discussed.

1. Combine feature lists from a couple of other shops
   Build a feature grid including ZC and the competition. A collaborative effort on some shared document/spreadsheet. Let anyone add what they know. Do it fast and rough, polish it when the content is there.
   For each feature
   a) name and explain what it means, for a new user to understand.
   b) is it already implemented in ZC?
   c) List the cost for the feature.
   d) Does it do more than the competition, or is it is missing an aspect that will be improved.
   e) Is the feature missing or in a plugin. What is the state of that plugin? Comments from anyone with experience with the competition.
   f) Comments on the work involved to implement/include/improve it or why it will never be done or always be a plugin. Be honest.

Only when the chart takes shape can we have any idea what is the current status of Zen Cart, and hence where it is possible to take it.
Decisions can finally be made as to what has priority, and people can choose what to take on.

It becomes a public roadmap, and I believe would encourage new users that the project is active and backed by real people, in a real community, taking it forward.
New users need confidence more than features. No-one wants to choose wrong, remember no-one used to get fired for buying IBM? Same thing here, we have to show ZC is still a long-term safe proposition.

The point here is that non-developers can set this up, the very few developers can add where relevant: they should spend their free time developing, not marketing.

The point I keep trying to get across is that ad-hoc suggestions about including various plugins that are kicking about has never worked and is not the right approach for a project with such limited (people) resources. The resources have to be focussed on solving the problem: showing ZC is still relevant.

2. Website
   Yes it needs improving but not much. The above roadmap should be on the front page along with access to the demo shop.
   New users need to see in one page that
   the project is alive
   it seems to offer what they think they want
   it talks to them in plain English and treats them as grown ups/business people who do not have time to lose finding out that the product does not do what it says on the tin
   there is a demo shop to try so they don’t have to waste time installing it
   they need to understand that how it looks is irrelevant…if it was perfect no-one would ever change it and all the shops would look the same! This is a difficult one, to separate the visual aspect from the underlying code quality.

3. Demo shop
   Another time saver for the potential business owner.

4. Admin
   While I don’t want to be advocating changes prior to the roadmap, the user experience in Admin does impinge on whether they continue or not. Visually who cares, but perhaps a fresh look (ask one of your family) could point out where things should be moved about to be more intuitive/logical. Every time someone has to use the Developers Toolkit to find an option means that it is not in the obvious place.

As pointed out previously, what Zen Cart offers for free (everything) has got to be worth a lot!
Add the enormous amount of information in the forum and the Documentation, and the small but important aspect that Zen Cart is probably better-coded than most of the competition, there has to be a future for this.

But not without a plan, contributors and management.

[GerriFM]

@torvista Well said! Any project seems too large to handle until it is broken down into small steps (take Github). Your grand plan would become the chart you spoke of: it would essentially be a revised Roadmap. It just collects together all those ideas you spoke of collecting via a public forum into one document that all can access.

My experience with not-for-profit industry-level planning (including developing marketing) - and the 20 years I've worked in the Science field (so I enjoy research) - tells me that:

1. You never throw out or ignore what's been done already before starting you planning.
2. Without a project plan that is regularly reviewed/revised and changed over the time, project creep and loss of focus is common.
3. Planning without action fails.
4. There is key team - that's you people. Team is usually quite small and invariably coordinates planning. Even if the team is quite small, that can still work if they lead the way for the community in a coordinated way. Hence using a Roadmap which drums down to the individual tasks that can be assigned ad-hoc as you suggested.
5. Invariably, a Marketing Plan becomes a primary tool but it can't be handled in isolation. Its bigger than that and coding etc. You need to look at the whole picture.
6. As @torvista said public consultation is key. As well as gaining buy-in from all parties, it also generates more interest from the community for extra volunteers when they see something is being done in which they can be involved. And not just the programmers.
7. Planning work is doomed to failure if you haven't got a starting point - a skeleton draft that leads the way.

Re point 1: 'roadmap' is such a good term that the ZC community is familiar so may I suggest keeping consistent terminology to avoid confusing it further with new names. Instead of a 'chart'/project plan etc, may I suggest a "Revised Roadmap" or ZC Roadmap v2022.

I'm happy to volunteer my time for a first step (point 3 :-)) to get @torvista 's propsed process underway i.e. developing a Revised Roadmap.

If you're interested, I could develop what I can call a Skeleton DRAFT Revised Roadmap as starting point to create the document that can then be fed into this team to be changed/fleshed out further before going over to the public consultation. I'll look over the discussions here, do some more intricate research into the platforms etc. and see what I can come up with.
I'd envisage this being made up primarily of dot points (much like Github again). These are collated under headings & sub-headings:
Goals: broad overall aims
Strategies: what we need to do to achieve those goals and address issues/risks (such as how to entice the new blood needed)
Actions: the small steps to achieve desired strategies. This is the real meaty bit!

So, would you like me to do this or would you prefer to handle it another way? No problem either way. If so, please read on, if not, please propose an action to take it a different way.

Questions for you:

• (re point 1): I've heard about the ZC Roadmap but I haven't really seen anything concrete? Can what you have already be shared somehow?
• Under what package would you like this prepared? I'm very used to working in Word but this needs to be a shared document that others can add to. Suggestions please?

[mc12345678]

How's that skeleton DRAFT revised roadmap going? Yes, you said if others were interested; however, I wish to point out that pretty much any one person asks a question there is at least one other that has the same. Might as well positively move forwards on the idea as long as you still have interest and the drive expressed several months ago...

You're still there aren't you @GerriFM.

This entire discussion remains pertinent and the only way to get the improvement this project needs is for others to take action in whatever small way they can.

[GerriFM]

@mc12345678, apologies for the late reply. My hubby's been in hospital for most of July (still there), we've also both contracted COVID & I've had to deal with other health issues of my own too. So I haven't had time to even look at this thread: I only came across your reply by accident.

Re skeleton DRAFT revised roadmap: With no reply previously forthcoming, I had figured that there wasn't much interest in going the way assuggested. I didn't want to inadvertently step on toes...so haven't made a start.

Will start work on it when the family health issues settle (~ 1 more week) and get back to you ASAP after that. I so don't know how to use the Github system so I'll initially work it up in a package I'm familiar with & then pass it over for further action.

[mc12345678]

On the personal issues, my sympathies. On the kicking something off, basically that was a bit of the point. For some things, make a start, request feedback and try to go and grow from there. Keep some tough skin, unless the response gets personal it's not. :P

I'll gladly carry your product forward, though there are certainly others herein that I expect would do the same. As a standard community member like most everyone else, I look forwards to everyone's development suggestions to resolve the issues important to continued use and growth.

Best wishes to you and your family.

[GerriFM]

Unfortunately, I won't have time available to work on a skeleton DRAFT revised roadmap: my husband's and my health situations have gotten worse instead of better as I had hoped. So I'll have to have to hand this task back to the group.

I hope there's someone out there who can help: a coordinated approach will achieve much better results.

Best of luck to you, @torvista and @mc12345678 and the ZC team.

[dbltoe]

Just looked at the PrestaShop Demo.

It scores 89 - 97 - 92 - 90 in LightHouse which is not too bad.

Axe DevTools says it has 98 accessibility issues with none in the Critical category.

No major CSS or HTML issues.

One major problem for me is that the thing needed the most for SEO (product description) is on the third page of an iPhone 13! The shopping cart Icon does not appear but the notice to continue shopping and checkout now buttons are there -- AFTER you scroll down to the bottom of the mobile screen. Granted, they might be visible with the Demo header removed.

At guest checkout, you're admonished that "Only letters and the dot (.) character followed by a space are allowed." for first and last names. That's gonna be a problem for all the Irish out there.

I could continue but, this is an example of MANY of Zen Cart's "competition." Make the front page and a few others PURDY and throw the other stuff at the screen.

1.5.7c straight out of the box (jeandret.com) with responsive_classic scores 100 - 100 - 92 - 82. The SEO ranking is incorrect as it claims the cart has no rel=canonical while a look at the page source clearly shows it on line 15. There are also a couple of things in the Accessibility Widget that need to be adjusted.

1.5.7c with bootstrap 3.3 shows virtually the same.

With the color fixes we did to 3.3 bootstrap, Axe DevTools shows only moderate and minor errors. No Critical or Serious errors.

In both instances, the majority of CSS or HTML errors are in files brought in from outside ZC. The 14 reported CSS errors come from bootstrap itself (13) and font-awesome.

How did we get there? A quick look at the member's list shows about 50 folks that have been actively posting/helping since Wilt in 2003 and through MC#s who joined in 2012. There may be more that were helpful but these 50 are currently active in the forum.

Getting those 50 all involved on GitHub will be a big boost. I think many, including myself, were or are hesitant to "speak up" other than on the forum.

What would I like to see first? DROP THE SHOWROOM! Talk about an anti-marketing program. That IS it. I can find only ONE entry for 2022. It has a lighthouse score of 99 - 88 - 83 - 83. Most of the low scores are a result of changes/additions to a store-bought template.

The closest to that is a year ago but, that one shows a lighthouse score of 99 - 95 - 83 - 100. Again, the low 83 is caused by an outside source. This one is really good at meeting accessibility.

The point is, that we are currently showing the world hundreds of sites in our Showcase. Most of them are outdated at the least, if not no longer even in existence.

IMHO marketing cannot begin without the removal of the Showcase.

Then, I would concentrate on the fact that no other cart has ever been PCI qualified. That with the lack of hacks, high test results out of the box, and protection from accessibility lawsuits needs to be stressed in every marketing plan.

[g2ktcf]

@dbltoe Agreed...the Showcase is not only worthless...it is a real hinderance in its current state (I looked at it earlier today)

PCI qualification, if I understand it correctly, has a lot of considerations in regards to plugins, addons and other mods. What constitutes a change where PCI compliance must be reassessed? This is a VERY GOOD POINT!

[g2ktcf]

I had another thought this morning after seeing someone looking for a plugin on the forums. The plugin page is super full of totally outdated plugins. I think we need to consider pruning this page. At the very least, move older versions to a separate page. Plugins that are not being maintained to the current release level are not good for the community.

[zcwilt]

However, at the moment our focus should be on getting v158 into a place where it can be released.

[scottcwilson]

Agreed. Getting a 1.5.8 release that will run on PHP 8.0 or 8.1 will be a big step forward.

[mc12345678]

And I say great short term goal.

The needs primarily discussed here are about what comes after that? What's being done in parallel with all these resources that have bit the bait to read and actively respond (or lurk)?

As had in a way been said, it's a mountain sure, reaching the top just takes one step at a time.

[torvista]

However, at the moment our focus should be on getting v158 into a place where it can be released.

When "that place" is defined, the path to get there will become shorter, the tasks required for completion will become visible and consequently the people with the inclination/appropriate skills can choose to take on those tasks as they see fit.
Visible progress towards a defined goal generates more effort and results.

However, I am of the opinion that 158 is already so much changed from 157 that an upgrade will need to be of the start-with-158-then-add-your-mods/rebuild type, so now is also the time to add as many breaking changes as possible.
I don't think any user would be surprised that many things are different between major versions.

[scottcwilson]

@torvista I'd REALLY like Google not to index the current name of this thread. Would you be willing to change it to something more positive like "The Future of Zen Cart"?

[g2ktcf]

Actually, that is not a bad idea. @torvista ?

[torvista]

I started this discussion with some concerns, observations and suggestions.
It seems prudent to point out that the enthusiasm and best intentions of myself and subsequent posters to action anything will come to absolutely nothing without the input and agreement of the project admins.
I don't see any comments from them on the concerns of my original post.

There is no end of things which could be done but there are few resources, by which I mean people.
But there seems more now than a week ago, which is encouraging, but only if they are encouraged.

Regarding the title of the thread. My hope was that people searching for confirmation of the demise of ZC would actually find a positive and 100% relevant discussion (instead of an ill-informed "review") where the concern was not about technical issues not being fixed but about how to better promote a top class product. It was meant to provoke, as my concern is honest.
I'll change it if you think it is detrimental to the project.

[brittainmark]

Having read this discussion, I sense disappointment that others have not responded. I only found this discussion because I was submitting a Pull request and wondered what was under discussions. The title made me read it.
While the title may not be good for new people, It got me to reply to the topic.

I like @GerriFM am, a store owner. I have a history in IT from programmer to project manager, now retired.
When I started looking for a cart, I too was time rich cash poor, so did not want to risk expenditure on a solution that might not be viable. I chose Zen Cart because it offered me a cart with no hidden costs.

Over the years, Zen cart has helped me learn PHP and JavaScript, although I would still class myself as an amateur, or as @torvista says a tinkerer, at programming. Most of my contributions have been out of necessity. But having said that, it has been good to give a little back.

I, too, like and use the Responsive Sheffield Blue theme and used it as a starting point and have kept modifying it to keep it going with the various incarnations of Zen Cart.

The main plug-ins that I use are:
Easypopulate
image_handler
Flexible footer
Square now Square Web Pay

The thing that i as a tinkerer like most is that Zen Cart is open to all and willing to help anyone who tries. I don't know if this is a saleable commodity, but it has meant that I have never wanted to look elsewhere for an alternative cart.
For me: once you try Zen Cart you don't want anything else!
It is just getting people to try it. (Sorry, no mar kinging suggestions).

[simon1066]

I chose Zen Cart because it offered me a cart with no hidden costs.

That's got to be one of the main USPs of Zen Cart.

[torvista]

I would point people to read my first post again and ask why there is no comment from the project admins.

[zcwilt]

@torvista What particular question are you waiting to be answered.

[torvista]

I voiced multiple assumptions, concerns and suggestions.
Things to be confirmed, refuted, discussed and maybe even acted upon.
I don't think any discussion of the code progress is relevant to the points I raised.
Since effectively you are now the project leader, the lack of comment relevant to the original post only reinforces the title.

[zcwilt]

Thought I would try some self hosted eCommerce platforms that compete with Zen Cart.
First off Prestashop
(My dev environment uses docker and php 8+ which runs ZC fine)
download latest Prestasħop (1.7.8.6)
hit the server endpoint and get
You need at most PHP 7.4 to install PrestaShop. Your current PHP version is 8.0.19
looking at code and see
define('_PS_INSTALL_MAXIMUM_PHP_VERSION_', '7.4');

will try later after setting docker to use php7.4, but not a good start.

[proseLA]

Thought I would try some self hosted eCommerce platforms that compete with Zen Cart. First off Prestashop (My dev environment uses docker and php 8+ which runs ZC fine) download latest Prestasħop (1.7.8.6) hit the server endpoint and get You need at most PHP 7.4 to install PrestaShop. Your current PHP version is 8.0.19 looking at code and see define('_PS_INSTALL_MAXIMUM_PHP_VERSION_', '7.4');

will try later after setting docker to use php7.4, but not a good start.

i would refer to their docs:

https://devdocs.prestashop.com/1.7/basics/installation/system-requirements/

given that security support for 7.4 ends in 4 months, one would hope that they would have a stable release running on a supported version of php prior to that window....

i too have tried a number of self hosted eCommerce platforms, including prestashop. i have it running on my dev environment which is a virtualized debian bullseye LAMP stack (no nginx). limited playing time on it, but so far i am impressed.

Ironic that this came in moments after your email. john "On July 19, 2022, at 2:00 pm, several members of the PrestaShop ecosystem notified PrestaShop employees of security incidents. A few hours later, it was confirmed by PrestaShop's technical teams that a malicious code ("payload") was inserted by a malicious third party on several e-commerce stores."

i am not sure what your point here is. malicious actors will target systems that have a greater install base.

comparing the activity on github of prestashop v zen-cart.... well there really is no comparison. there is FAR more activity over there.

[mc12345678]

comparing the activity on github of prestashop v zen-cart.... well there really is no comparison. there is FAR more activity over there.

My turn. Not sure what the point is here, isn't this comparison misleading?

Let's see, it's a few months to sunset of the currently highest supported php version and the software doesn't yet support the next primary version. Compare that to something that has been out for at least a year that supported 8.0 if not in part 8.1.. So what, saying an organization that falls behind in maintaining code quality is better because suddenly they need to get it right and are frantically trying? That's a recipe for disaster.

[dbltoe]

Ironic that this came in moments after your email. john "On July 19, 2022, at 2:00 pm, several members of the PrestaShop ecosystem notified PrestaShop employees of security incidents. A few hours later, it was confirmed by PrestaShop's technical teams that a malicious code ("payload") was inserted by a malicious third party on several e-commerce stores."

[zcwilt]

I've thought long and hard about how better to respond to this thread.

I originally created Zen Cart as a fork of osCommerce and I passionately believe in Open Source development.
I feel a real sense of ownership because of that.

At the same time, I know we haven't got to where we are now without the input of many many people.
I'd mention the huge contributions of core team members @drbyte, @ajeh etc.
and since moving development to github, there has been increasing involvement of community members.
(in fact of late the majority of development has been due to the contribution of non core team members)
and I love that that is happening

@torvista

Progress is not bugfixes and php compatibility.

What exactly do you want.

If you want a roadmap, do you have input as to what that roadmap should be.

Or do you want a roadmap and for others to make the decision for you.

You say I'm the de facto project leader, that is so far from the truth, it's just that I'm spending more time on the project now, than I have done in the past as other team members are managing personal issues.

I've spent that last 3 months opening up the management of the Zen Cart project to others, to ensure that if core team members disappeared, the project could continue.

While you may want us to write feature code(is that what you want), we need to have solid base code on which to do that. v158 is that base.
It addresses a huge number of bugs from 157, fixes compatibility issues thru php7.3-php8.1
and provides a solid foundation to do what you want, to start addressing features.
I personally am looking forward to write some REST API code to maybe do some headless stuff for Zen Cart, I also want to expand on the use of Laravel models, and maybe make the installer easier to use.

I know there are people looking at integration of more popular plugins.

This whole thread seems somewhat negative. Why not start a more positive thread to say how you would move stuff forward.

[zcwilt]

@torvista

Just to be clear. You have contributed so much to Zen Cart and especially to v158.
I'm not querying your commitment.
However you should stop thinking that core team members are the sole arbiters of progress.

[zcwilt]

So a bit of an apology here, especially to @torvista

I was definitely in grumpy old man mode, when I posted earlier.
Actually grumpy person of advanced years if you want to be PC :)

I do agree that a lot of what we are currently doing in v158 is reactive.
Bug fixing needs to happen, and planning and fixing for PHP8.1 is needed.

However, I agree that just bug fixing isn't something that is inspiring for people looking for an e-commerce platform.

We do need a roadmap over and above the bug fixing.
We also need a marketing strategy.
We have never really made good use of our Social Media accounts or the mailing list provided by forum members.

Over the weekend, I'm going to create a few new discussion threads in Github to begin with

These will cover

Roadmap - what needs to happen with core code to inspire current users and to entice new users
Marketing - what can we do to promote Zen Cart through social media and press releases!
Community - What can we do within the forums, do we need to change the forums, managing plugins etc.

I'm open to suggestions for other topics.

[zcwilt]

#5090 as a start.

[zcwilt]

#5094

[zcwilt]

#5095

[gbeyer3]

My wife's business has been using Z-C for 16 years (my how time flies, couldn't believe what I found in order history, LOL).

Anyway, I chose Z-C for the business due to its many options & flexibility built-IN. Later, we learned that whenever we needed a new feature, a mature plug-in has always been available to meet the need.

SAS solutions lock you in, AND the business owner is at the mercy of the vendor to develop a feature they need. And guess what -- they will not/cannot do "one-offs" . I think these are important feature / marketing messages.

One suggestion I have for marketing Z-C is to stand-up a demo store site on the website. Complete with descriptions and images, a few hundred earlier orders. People need to see and drive the Storefront and Admin. Allow people to create products, register as a customer, submit orders, get the confirmation email. As much as can be done with a demo cart. Lock down what should not be changed in the demo. Automatically wipe and set back to default automatically every 30 or 60 minutes.

Then you'd have a real try-before-you-buy experience, and people can get a very good idea of a lot that ZC can do. Be sure to use a modern-looking, responsive theme, and I'd recommend an image slider be included.

I also found a comparison of carts at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_shopping_cart_software

Thank you very much, Zen-Cart team!

best,

Greg

[scottcwilson]

Thanks for your kind words, Greg.