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Please consider changing the name of PetSet before General Availability #27430

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jimmycuadra opened this issue Jun 15, 2016 · 148 comments
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@jimmycuadra
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jimmycuadra commented Jun 15, 2016

I brought this up back when PetSet was just a proposal, but it didn't get much response. At the risk of being labeled or dismissed as an "SJW" or "preachy vegan," or of stirring up drama, please hear me out:

The name PetSet is derived from the common metaphor in infrastructure of "pets vs. cattle." The metaphor encourages infrastructure developers to think of cloud servers as anonymous and fungible resources rather than things to be manually managed by a person. The implication is that instead of treating a server like a pet, which you take care of and treat when it becomes sick, you simply destroy the server and replace it with a new one, as a cattle rancher would simply kill an animal that didn't serve its economic purpose to the rancher. The pet has a personal and emotional value to you, but the cattle is just a commodity.

The lesson in infrastructure here is quite a good one, and its value should be preserved, but using this particular metaphor is quite unfortunate, because it perpetuates the belief that the life and well being of an animal has value only in relation to its value to humans.

This may seem like making a mountain out of a molehill, but try to think about how our language perpetuates our culture and our beliefs. Try to think about it in the context of how future generations will see it. In the same way that homophobic or racist language was (and in some cases still is) commonplace and accepted in days past, in the modern world we generally recognize this language as unacceptable because it promotes a negative world view that we have progressed past. Imagine how angry people would be if this feature were called "WifeSet" and the analogy were "wives vs. bar hook-ups." We're in an era of increasing empathy, and that empathy is not bounded only to other humans. It affects any being that can feel pain, sadness, or loss, like we can.

While I don't claim to have a perfect substitute for this analogy that might replace PetSet, the one I have been using myself is to compare the role of owning a car vs using a taxi or ridesharing service. When you own a car, it is your personal possession. You take care of it. You keep it fueled, cleaned, and maintained in good shape. When it breaks, you get it fixed. In contrast, a taxi or ridesharing service is using a car as a fungible resource. You hail one only when you need the service it provides, and you use it only as long as you require that service. You don't care which car picks you up, or who is driving it, as long as it is fulfills the service. So my own suggestion for a replacement for PetSet is CarSet. If someone has a better idea that seems to "click" with people more, all the better. And of course, the feature could be named something more general—it doesn't have to use an analogy. (I recall that originally "NominalSet" was being considered.)

This issue is not about me or anyone else being "offended," or requesting that the name be changed to CarSet specifically—it's just asking specifically not to invoke the pets vs. cattle metaphor in the name of this feature.

Thank you very much for considering this.

For context, here is my previous comment from back in the proposal phase.

@smarterclayton
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Thanks for speaking up - we will definitely take this into the discussions in the community before this feature moves out of alpha.

@thockin
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thockin commented Jun 16, 2016

Agree. We went with PetSet as a working name in part because we knew it could never be the "real" name, but we didn't have a good name for the concept yet. Names hold power, so we want to be careful to find something thta captures the problem well. Having a first impl of the solution will help refine the problem statement, too.

@chrislovecnm
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@thockin I kinda like it ... and it may be a bit too late. Lots of press about Pet Set already.

@jimmycuadra
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Yeah, I may have misunderstood what was meant by changing it before coming out of alpha. To some extent I think the damage is already done now.

@chrislovecnm
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Blame me 👍 One good thing ... memorable names stick. Can we close this?

@jimmycuadra
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I'd still like the team to consider changing it.

@thockin
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thockin commented Jul 8, 2016

I think we really should consider changing it. Silly names do stick, but
they are silly.

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Jimmy Cuadra notifications@github.com
wrote:

I'd still like the team to consider changing it.


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@chrislovecnm
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@thockin we have videos on YouTube, blog posts, tweet, LinkedIn stuff and presentations at conferences, and many many decks with that content. You want to do the rebranding??? It is a big problem to change at this point...

@thockin
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thockin commented Jul 8, 2016

Let's just leave it on the table. I suspect neither of us have marketing
degrees :)

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Chris Love notifications@github.com wrote:

@thockin https://github.com/thockin we have videos on YouTube, blog
posts, tweet, LinkedIn stuff and presentations at conferences, and many
many decks with that content. You want to do the rebranding??? It is a big
problem to change at this point...


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@aronchick
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I'm 100% ok with renaming, and don't feel like there's any pain in doing so. However, CarSet does not feel like a fit.

For any who would like name change, please voice here. We'll bring this up at the community meeting next week, and I'd like to settle on a new name by August 1.

@jimmycuadra
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Re-quoting myself for emphasis:

Imagine how angry people would be if this feature were called "WifeSet" and the analogy were "wives vs. bar hook-ups."

If the name were something that was seen more universally as unacceptable, I don't think "people already started using the term in social media, oh well, let's keep it" would be an acceptable attitude. The fact that it's already out there doesn't mean there's no value in changing it. If having a reference to something out in the wild meant you couldn't change it in the future, we wouldn't have things like changelogs and semantic versioning.

@chrislovecnm
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chrislovecnm commented Jul 8, 2016

CarSet does not have any relevance in tech, can we come up with something techy or ship like? I am sorta on the side of not changing it, but we need a good name. If we do change it we gotta change it quite quickly. People will have PetSet in production very quickly if not now. Changing code because a team chooses to change branding probably will not make people happy.

@smarterclayton
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Let's be sure to separate this out into two discussions - deciding on a
change, vs the naming process. We already have a pattern to deal with the
later, but getting the general agreement in the community that the name
should be changed probably is what we want to stay focused on for now.

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 7:34 PM, Chris Love notifications@github.com wrote:

CarSet does not have any relevance in tech, can we come up with something
techy or ship like? We can change it, but we need a good name.


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@jimmycuadra
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@chrislovecnm

I'm not bound to CarSet (though PetSet doesn't have any "relevance in tech" either)—I was just offering a suggestion that used a similar metaphor, so as not to simply ask the team to do something without offering a possible way to do it. People who have worked on the feature or been involved in its design discussions will probably have better ideas, since they have the best understanding of the use cases for the feature.

@chrismarino
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Just stumbled on this thread...adding my $0.02.

  1. Naming IS HARD!!! I've named dozens of products, features and even companies and its never been a quick or simple process.
  2. Everyone has an opinion. 100% certain there will be someone that does't like a name.
  3. Getting everyone to agree on a name shouldn't be a requirement
  4. Very hard to re-name something once it has any kind of name recognition.

As for PetSets in particular, I think it's a pretty good name. Both informative and evocative (IMO in a good way), which are two of the most important aspects of a name.

That said, its really the name of one of several similar kind of features. And within this broader context it lacks the consistency you'd expect across similar things. Don't have any of the history, but I thought Replication Controllers were renamed to Replica Sets to introduce the idea of Sets which could then be applied to different kinds of sets (i.e. PetSets). But as a group, these two names seem random and they miss the opportunity to apply further consistency across Sets (i.e. one name is literal, the other analogous).

Also, will there be other kinds of Sets? If not, then random is probably OK. But if there will be more kinds of Sets, then the next one would also have to be random since you definitely shouldn't have two 'literal' names with another that is 'analogous'. That would just make PetSets seem too casual and not serious.

@derekwaynecarr
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derekwaynecarr commented Jul 9, 2016

FamilialSet would get the same idea across. Each member of a family is
special, cares about its peers, and often has a particular role, and
everyone mourns the loss of any one member.

Or something similar like KinSet or KindredSet

On Friday, July 8, 2016, chrismarino notifications@github.com wrote:

Just stumbled on this thread...adding my $0.02.

  1. Naming IS HARD!!! I've named dozens of products, features and even
    companies and its never been a quick or simple process.
  2. Everyone has an opinion. 100% certain there will be someone that
    does't like a name.
  3. Getting everyone to agree on a name shouldn't be a requirement
  4. Very hard to re-name something once it has any kind of name
    recognition.

As for PetSets in particular, I think it's a pretty good name. Both
informative and evocative (IMO in a good way), which are two of the most
important aspects of a name.

That said, its really the name of one of several similar kind of features.
And within this broader context it lacks the consistency you'd expect
across similar things. Don't have any of the history, but I thought
Replication Controllers were renamed to Replica Sets to introduce the idea
of Sets which could then be applied to different kinds of sets (i.e.
PetSets). But as a group, these two names seem random and they miss the
opportunity to apply further consistency across Sets (i.e. one name is
literal, the other analogous).

Also, will there be other kinds of Sets? If not, then random is probably
OK. But if there will be more kinds of Sets, then the next one would also
have to be random since you definitely shouldn't have two 'literal' names
with another that is 'analogous'. That would just make PetSets seem too
casual and not serious.


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@jaycoon
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jaycoon commented Jul 9, 2016

JetSet seems fitting (and one letter off). Besides relating the term "jet set", a JetSet is composed of Jets, which should be handled with care

@bprashanth
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The name PetSet is derived from the common metaphor in infrastructure of "pets vs. cattle."

The name petset is derived from the fact that I care about my pets, regardless of what anyone else thinks about their cattle. Cattle are sacred in some places, food in others, and I view that as a culture difference. I won't use pets vs cattle to explain this feature where I'm from, but pets vs servers works just as well :)

@jimmycuadra
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@bprashanth

That's a fair point. Pets have value whether or not they are compared to something else. But the usage of the term in Kubernetes is not without context: Pets vs cattle is a metaphor very commonly used in writing about modern infrastructure. A quick Google search even brings up usage of the term in Kubernetes's own blog. It seems to sidestep the issue I'm trying to address to suggest that the term has no prior meaning in this area of our industry. There are an infinite number of things this feature could be called. Surely there is something that would work that doesn't use this metaphor.

@apsinha
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apsinha commented Jul 9, 2016

We can publish options for discussion here. Instead of using metaphors, which can have unintended meaning, let's try a descriptive name. Should ideally be easy to understand for someone with a Linux background. Throwing out some options.

  • PersistentSet
  • StatefulSet or StateSet
  • PermanentSet
  • StickySet
  • BindSet
  • NamedSet
  • SavedSet
  • StoredSet
  • SequentialSet
  • OrderedSet

@ikester
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ikester commented Jul 9, 2016

I think that's a good initial set of names (pun intended). I don't think we're too late to change it, as others have pointed out. Yes, there are videos and other materials out there, but it will only get worse with time. If the community agrees that this is a worthwhile thing to do, it should act quickly, otherwise we end up with fuzzy transitions like the one from Replication Controllers to Deployments and Replica Sets.

If we can come up with and agree on API method and parameter names we can certainly converge on object names like these. I find several of the ones proposed by @apsinha to be simple and self-explanatory. I personally think the first two work well: PersistentSet or StatefulSet, as opposed to EphemeralSet.

@aronchick
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My $0.02 vote from Aparna's excellent list:

  • NamedSet
  • PersistentSet

On the crazy idea side:

  • Snowflake Set
  • Borg Set (like "I am 7 of 9")

I was never fond of PetSet - only for the reason that it is not obvious what it is on its face, and breaks with the obvious naming we have across the product. A "ReplicaSet" is, plainly, a set of replicas. A "Deployment" is ... well ... a deployment. Etc.

The word I'm looking for here is "what is the opposite of a bunch of exact replicas, each of which are unique in some way, but still have some similarity as a group." Maybe I'm coming around to Family/FamilialSet. Or ClusterSet?

@jimmycuadra
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jimmycuadra commented Jul 9, 2016

Aparna's list is great. My favorite of the bunch is StatefulSet, since the term "stateful application" is used in the container world and should be pretty easily understood. In discussion of container orchestration systems, you'll often hear people ask, "Great, but how does it handle stateful apps?" In a similar way to how the other ThingSets are sets of Things, a StatefulSet is a set of stateful pods/apps. It could even be more explicit: StatefulPodSet.

@smarterclayton
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FamilySet probably fails the "is a recognizable term for describing the
concept at play", and is also redundant (a family is another way of saying
"set of humans with shared responsibilities for raising biological
offspring", so "a set set").

The distinguishing characteristics of the use case for this object is:

  1. To preserve individual identity for fungible entities
  2. To provide predictable ordering and control as those entities change
  3. To enable the software entities to identify and recognize the other
    entities by those identities
  4. To get access to a consistent storage mechanism (because their identity
    also corresponds to data)

Sequence and ordering are relevant, but not strictly necessary (in the
future we will probably introduce other naming and ordering schemes, which
may prevent sequential / ordered from being accurate). State (or at least,
storage) is not required, although I agree that in practice most of the
use of this set would be for stateful services.

On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Jimmy Cuadra notifications@github.com
wrote:

Aparna's list is great. My favorite of the bunch is StatefulSet, since the
term "stateful application" is used in the container world and should be
pretty easily understood. In discussion of container orchestration systems,
you'll often hear people ask, "Great, but how does it handle stateful
apps?" In a similar way to how the other ThingSets are sets of Things, a
StatefulSet is a set of stateful pods/apps.


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@bprashanth
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It's hard to pick a name that doesn't extol any single feature of petset (such as state, persistence, ordering, ordinality, name, sequence). This is one feature we built in reverse, by prototyping a bunch of applications that didn't fit in any existing bucket and formalizing their requirements into an api.

This process is sometimes called domain modelling, and the number of things required by this domain is > 1 word. We faced a similar dilemma choosing its api-group. I think "is a recognizable term for describing the concept at play" might be a trap, and we just need to call it a word that makes people think of the domain.

@minhchuduc
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Aparna's list is awesome!
My $0.02 vote is:

  • PersistentSet
  • NamedSet
  • OrderedSet

We should consider primary use-cases of PetSet to choose name http://kubernetes.io/docs/user-guide/petset/#when-to-use-pet-set

@Lukenickerson
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Here are a few more options:

  • DistinctSet
  • UniqueSet
  • SuiSet (stateful uniquely identifiable; also a play on sui generis)
  • PetSet, redefined as an abbreviation/backronym of PersistentSet ("Pe't")

@jaycoon
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jaycoon commented Jul 11, 2016

PetSet, redefined as an abbreviation/backronym of PersistentSet ("Pe't")

I like this @Lukenickerson

@chrislovecnm
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So the features of Pet Set are based on identity and don't have to include Data existence. I can have a stateless Pet Set of an application that required known identity for quorum. I would ask to stay away from names that include references to other components like Persistent Volumes when you don't need a PV for a Pet Set.

But back to @smarterclayton's point, should we focus on if we want to change the name to what the name should be on this issue? @smarterclayton you mentioned that we have a procedure for naming stuff?

@joeblackwaslike
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I'm personally a fan of PetSet. When I first saw it in the documentation I knew exactly what it was for and what problem it solved before I even read a word about it and how often does that ever happen? It also seems more succinct than any of the alternatives so far.

It could be argued that the vast majority of people in the container community will understand the analogy and that anything that can be done to make kubernetes concepts easier to understand by building on existing concepts will reduce the overall bandwidth spent answering questions that could be spent making PetSet's even better :)

I'm certainly not opposed to a name change, I just hope it will be for a better, more succinct name since names really are important. :)

@ikester
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ikester commented Oct 22, 2016

I know people probably don’t want even more choices at this point but, after reading again recent arguments and looking at the options in that poll, I wonder why I haven’t seen:

OrderSet - os
OrderedSet - os
OrderedInstanceSet - os
IndexSet - is
IndexedSet - is
IndexedInstanceSet - is
SequenceSet - seq
SequencedSet - seq
SequencedInstanceSet - seq
OrdinalSet - os

Key point: Noun (not Adjective)

It’s important that the name reflects what the abstraction actually represents and establishes expectations.

Just stirring things up on an otherwise boring Saturday :)

@aecolley
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@danpaik I noticed that the polljunkie summary scores do not seem to make sense when compared with the downloadable votes. I encourage you to use the Export to CSV option and crunch the numbers yourself to find the Condorcet winner.

@danpaik
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danpaik commented Oct 23, 2016

Thanks for the info. I'll download the csv as well after midnight on Monday night.

@szuecs
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szuecs commented Oct 24, 2016

The whole idea of renaming, because of pets should not be replaced (kill and create) is a bit crazy to me. As german I have to say that having shortcuts like "ns" [1] and "sa" [2] are much more offending than "PetSet".
I totally agree with @wallverb @hjacobs @fortytw2 .

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung

@mbbroberg
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@szuecs it seems unfair to the conversation to compare two letter acronyms as similar to an intentional metaphor. The question is whether the "pet" term lends itself too naturally to the phrase "vs cattle" as discussed from the beginning or whether it stands on its own as @wallverb discussed.

I still like pet since it makes me think of my pets, which I do value more than other animals. That's my preference, but I'm happy with how open the discuss has been and I'm thankful our community is rising to the occasion to find a democratic process. Thanks again to @danpaik for all the hard work!

@wyaeld
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wyaeld commented Oct 25, 2016

Minor observation: PersistentSet can just as easily use PerSet as a shorthand rather than the suggestions above for PetSet again, for those of us who like short names

@capsloth
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The poll result is official? PetSets are StatefulSets now?

@pigmej
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pigmej commented Oct 25, 2016

I think that chosen StatefulSet is very bad name, what if I have stateless PetSet?

@chrislovecnm
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@danpaik do we have results? I need to rename a talk at kubecon

@danpaik
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danpaik commented Oct 25, 2016

Yes, I am crunching the final tally to find the condorcet winner which may or may not be consistent with the polljunkie results (which uses a different method). I'll update later today.

@justinsb
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I think what redis did here is worthy of thought: http://redis.io/commands/SLAVEOF

When we talk about PetSets, we have an opportunity for advocacy. Talking about things and giving them names is the only way to effect change. I have never thought more about cattle and where meat comes from than I have since the pets vs cattle analogy came about. We don't need to endorse the analogy, but stopping using the words removes that thought from my mind.

@jimmycuadra what is a successful outcome here?

@ikester
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ikester commented Oct 25, 2016

Yes Chris. That was my main concern when I first posted on this thread.

But how big of a debt is it really? I mean, this is still beta, and it’s only been out for a few months.

I’m not saying the cost is zero. There are clearly many documents, blog posts, tutorials, videos, etc. already out there. My point is that it’s only going to get worse. And if we’re going to make a change it should be done now.

On Oct 20, 2016, at 12:40 PM, Chris Love notifications@github.com wrote:

@danpaik https://github.com/danpaik who can handle a PR on the questions that I have raised here:

Also, what is the plan to re-educate people if the name does change? There is going to be a cost to companies that are already using this component. How is that going to be addressed?

I opened a PR on upgrades, and non-breaking changes, someone else needs to run with this one. There are both education and marketing problems that we are creating. We are creating technical debt for companies that have already used this tool.


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@ikester
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ikester commented Oct 25, 2016

I know people probably don’t want even more choices at this point but, after reading again recent arguments and looking at the options in that poll, I wonder why I haven’t seen:

OrderSet - os
OrderedSet - os
OrderedInstanceSet - os
IndexSet - is
IndexedSet - is
IndexedInstanceSet - is
SequenceSet - seq
SequencedSet - seq
SequencedInstanceSet - seq
OrdinalSet - os

Key point: Noun (not Adjective)

It’s important that the name reflects what the abstraction actually represents and establishes expectations.

Just stirring things on an otherwise boring Saturday :)

On Oct 21, 2016, at 6:22 PM, Henning Jacobs notifications@github.com wrote:

@aronchick https://github.com/aronchick my 2 cents:

the name probably should end with "Set" to be consistent with "ReplicaSet" (reading the thread I now understand the "*Array" proposals, but they are not intuitive to me at first)
it should be memorable
it should be rather short
its acronym should be compatible (no conflicts and not "unfortunate" like "SS")
pets might be cute, but how can a little bit of cuteness be bad in this cruel world? 😼
pets deserve our special care, so it somehow describes a property intuitively (no need to know the whole "pets vs. cattle" analogy)
I like the proposal "PetSet, redefined as an abbreviation/backronym of PersistentSet ("Pe't")"
I don't like having a poll with a curated list which excludes the original name (that just sounds neither transparent nor fair to me)
"PersistentSet" comes closest for me, but it's not consistent ("ReplicaSet" == "Set of Replicas", "PetSet" == "Set of Pets", but "Set of Persistent"?)
For me to understand: how big is the pain with the current naming really (maybe just a poll to find out?)? I personally just don't see the pain outweighing the hassle of changing to another subpar solution.

BTW: I just came here because the poll http://www.polljunkie.com/poll/iibacq/kubernetes-petsets-renaming was posted in Slack and I first thought "oh cool, a naming poll 😄", but then I saw the available poll options 😞


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@karlkfi
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karlkfi commented Oct 25, 2016

PersistentPodSet?

On Oct 20, 2016, at 4:51 PM, Jimmy Cuadra notifications@github.com wrote:

Dan had said he'd post a new poll at 5 PM (assuming Pacific.) Should be up in just a few minutes.


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@danpaik
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danpaik commented Oct 25, 2016

I finished crunching the numbers and the winner is StatefulSet.

It won via multiple methods - average position (polljunkie) and condorcet using completion rules Schulze/Beatpath/CSSD, CIVS Ranked Pairs, MAM, Condorcet-IRV.

There is sometimes a bit of variation on the ordering after the top but the top is always StatefulSet.

The new name for PetSets will be StatefulSet.

I am truly sorry that some folks were displeased with the processes, transparency, and choices. Hopefully we can do a much better job next time should such a need arise.

@smarterclayton
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I'll take the todo to formalize some of the name decision processes and get that adapted to api_change.md. We have a set of guidelines for names (some of which we helped describe here) and that will help make the future process for name changes smoother.

Marking as resolved - thanks everyone for keeping this civil, even if there were some bumps.

@szuecs
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szuecs commented Oct 26, 2016

@danpaik would be great if you consider the old name in the next poll. I don't really care about names, but if you break backwards compatibility, because of renaming then I care.

@chrislovecnm
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@smaterclayton having a defined process about re-naming I think is worthwhile. Think it would have helped with some of the bumps. Appreciate u taking that on

@smarterclayton
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I'll take the todo to formalize some of the name decision processes and get
that adapted to api_change.md. We have a set of guidelines for names (some
of which we helped describe here) and that will help make the future
process for name changes smoother.

On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Dan Paik notifications@github.com wrote:

I finished crunching the numbers and the winner is StatefulSet.

It won via multiple methods - average position (polljunkie) and condorcet
using completion rules Schulze/Beatpath/CSSD, CIVS Ranked Pairs, MAM,
Condorcet-IRV.

There is sometimes a bit of variation on the ordering after the top but
the top is always StatefulSet.

The new name for PetSets will be StatefulSet.

I am truly sorry that some folks were displeased with the processes,
transparency, and choices. Hopefully we can do a much better job next time
should such a need arise.


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@smarterclayton if you can have a PR / issue open for comment about doing so, that'd be swell (and link it in this issue)

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Renaming to StatefulSet: #35663

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There is the question of how we decide the name. I don't think voting turned out to be a good way to do that.

There is also the question of how rename impacts users. We will see how the "delete alpha resource" impacts users when they upgrade their clusters to 1.5 and StatefulSet. We may decide that pattern is too costly. If so, we should invest in the API machinery to allow us to concurrently host the old Kind and the new Kind (in cases when the representations are intraconvertible).

@justinsb we talked about this topic recently.

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@smarterclayton your proposal will cover both those topics? (and more, I suspect, knowing you 😄 )

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Yeah I plan to early next week.

On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Eric Tune notifications@github.com wrote:

There is the question of how we decide the name. I don't think voting
turned out to be a good way to do that.

There is also the question of how rename impacts users. We will see how
the "delete alpha resource" impacts users when they upgrade their clusters
to 1.5 and StatefulSet. We may decide that pattern is too costly. If so, we
should invest in the API machinery to allow us to concurrently host the old
Kind and the new Kind (in cases when the representations are
intraconvertible).

@justinsb https://github.com/justinsb we talked about this topic
recently.


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