Add rendering for emergency=defibrillator

[kocio-pl]

This is similar to #318 and #1160 and it also depends on #1504 (database re-import).

This is one of the most popular emergency items (8 621 uses on Taginfo).

I think the icon should be like this:
1)

in a color and text style of health amenities, but rendered from z>=18, or even 19.

I'm aware that there were already some discussions about it, but we should gather the opinions about it somewhere, especially when there's a draft for the icon.

[mboeringa]

Icon seems sound, as it follows the most used standard for this. However, to improve recognizability, maybe also stick with the green color often used?

[kocio-pl]

Nice idea! I was not aware there is a color associated with it, but it would help us a lot probably. Any (hex) shade that we should try?

[lest69]

It seems like green isn't always used. Colour usage seems to be split between green and red.

Since #1355 may use green for other objects and I don't think we're using green for any other icons right now (are we?), maybe it would be best to just use the health amenity red/purple?

[matthijsmelissen]

I'm not quite sure about rendering this icon. What would be the use case in which it would be useful for someone to have this icon on the map?

[HolgerJeromin]

The use case is that you get aware of them in your local area so that you remember them in case of an emergency.

[kocio-pl]

Now I think it doesn't fit the general style, so closing this ticket.

[rjw62]

I think the usecase given by HolgerJeromin above is very important. These potentially life-saving devices are only useful if people know where they are. Showing them on the map would help raise awareness of their locations. I'd therefore like to see this ticket re-opened.

[kocio-pl]

Two important questions:

1. Do they belong to a general map?
2. If yes - how should they be rendered?

[rjw62]

For Q2: Presumably we should base any icon on the ILCOR standard described at http://www.ilcor.org/news/news-archive/ilcor-presents-a-universal-aed-sign but possibly simplified a bit to work better at small sizes. Whether it should be green (to match the standard) or pink (to match our other emergency/health icons) is an open question.

[kocio-pl]

I mean something more concrete than general look - we need a vector icon which fits 14px matrix.

I still think that being important doesn't mean being general - it's a specialized device and should be visible on special style.

[matthijsmelissen]

Nowadays about every office block has a defibrilator in the Netherlands. I'm afraid rendering them would flood the map.

[pnorman]

Nowadays about every office block has a defibrilator in the Netherlands. I'm afraid rendering them would flood the map.

Yes - even though I think they're important and don't belong on a general map, if I did think they should be rendered, there's the practical problem that they either tend to overlap with another POI, or be in an area where rendering them would flood the map.

[jojo4u]

Waste baskets are rendered and much more abundant. Only public defibrillators should be rendered. The ones in office buildings should get access=private.

[HolgerJeromin]

Many waste baskets are next to nothing or a bench in a park and is not overlapping many shop POIs. So IMO both are not comparable.
I am not sure if they are too much...

[SomeoneElseOSM]

Personally I don't buy the "not enough room" argument. Even though OSM's "standard" tiles only support up to z19, at z19 there's plenty of room for a small icon:

https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=19&lat=53.163729&lon=-1.415489

[dktue]

Can we reopen this issue, please?

[kocio-pl]

Sure we can, but the question is on which merits?

[dktue]

I agree with @SomeoneElseOSM that there's plenty of room at z19 and those defibrillators that are accessible by the public should be visible to raise awareness -- so that you know where they are in case of emergency.

In my city we have a public list of publicly available defibrillators that has been mapped into OSM. I think there's real advantage to show them without cluttering the map.

[kocio-pl]

I think there's real advantage to show them without cluttering the map.

I can't agree with it, see here:

http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/yCJ

They are competing with shops, offices, pubs and other objects even now, because they carry an address tag (see #962).

[dktue]

But they can all be rendered whithout any label-collision at this level -- I don't see any problem.

[kocio-pl]

I don't say about label collisions, only about clutter. I mean they are small indoor facility which are visible the same as other, bigger amenities. Even bus stops and bicycle parkings are less visible, because they are not located on the buildings.

I have moved toilets to z19+ lately (#3055) exactly because they can be indoor facility (think of a toilet in the cafe), but they are bigger and more useful in a daily life. Defibrillator belongs to an emergency kind of map.

[dktue]

How about only rendering those defibrillators that are publicly accessible?

[Adamant36]

They could be added to the "health" category ;)

[dktue]

@Adamant36 or the emergency category ;)

[SomeoneElseOSM]

How about only rendering those defibrillators that are publicly accessible?

A surprising (to me anyway) of these do have an access tag:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/emergency=defibrillator#combinations

[jragusa]

@Adamant36 I agree to display emergency tag with the same colour than heath tag scheme

@dktue that's would be related to #1012

@SomeoneElseOSM I think they distinguish facility available in public space to those located in office and storage site of companies for example.

[jeisenbe]

Can just anyone really grab an AED and use it?

Yes. They are automated, so as soon as you open or turn it n the device there are instructions.

[HolgerJeromin]

(if you break the glass and grab it)

I am pretty sure (at least I hope it) this glass is in a window which could be opened without breaking the glass.
I got an AED training from my employee (as part of a first aid training), but ideally every adult should be able to use it without it.

[Adamant36]

do you want the heart-attack victim lying on the floor getting no treatment while they find you, the first-aid person, in the back storeroom, out on the loading dock, up in the conference room, at lunch ... ?

No of course not, but at least in that situation the main style doesn't enter into the conversation about why it went wrong or potentially get blamed for it. How many news articles, blog posts, and the like have there been about how OSM is supposedly dangerous in cases where have been injured by following it? I don't think rendering (or not rendering) something should be based on that, but in this case AEDs are already rendered by OsmAnd.

Plus, no one can tell me rendering them won't get in the way of other more important POI's being rendered either. I'm about 100% sure AEDs will block out shop POIs in a ton of cases. So, it doesn't seem worth it to render them IMO. Even without the potential hazards. I was behind them being rendered before #6896 was opened and dealt with though. Now it doesn't like the pros outweigh the cons.

[pnorman]

I'm not quite sure about rendering this icon. What would be the use case in which it would be useful for someone to have this icon on the map?

There's been a lot of discussion about if we can render them, but I've seen no reasons why we should add them to a general purpose map.

[HolgerJeromin]

but I've seen no reasons why we should add them to a general purpose map.

I gave one. But I am not sure how important this is:

#1603 (comment)

[boothym]

Mapped one recently and realised that these were still not rendered in osm-carto.

There can't be many other things with this amount of usage which are not rendered on here? We now have over 45,000 in OSM (an increase of 12k in the last year). https://taghistory.raifer.tech/#***/emergency/defibrillator

The access tag could be used to adjust the rendering - like with parking where the icon uses a lower opacity. There is also the indoor tag, used on 50% of the objects, which might be useful for determining whether for example outdoor defibrillators could even be rendered at z18.

Here's how it could look at z19 in a railway station for example, using this icon:

Or if you wanted to render those with indoor=no at a higher zoom level (z18 here):

[imagico]

There can't be many other things with this amount of usage which are not rendered on here?

Not even close.

For some perspective: We don't render lanes tags on roads (>12M uses), we don't render leaf_cycle (2.8M uses). If you only go for primary tags - we don't render emergency=fire_hydrant (1.5M uses), we don't render highway=stop (1M uses), we don't render railway=switch (630k uses).

[boothym]

Hmm, well ok then, let's limit it to things which aren't already part of something else which is rendered on the map - seeing as defibrillators are standalone objects. 🙄

highway=milestone, platform
natural=rock, land
landuse=village_green, logging, greenfield
railway=abandoned, signal, (buffer_stop), milestone
man_made=survey_point, *_well, surveillance, manhole, street_cabinet, flagpole
emergency=fire_hydrant

So not that many - plus some of those will be overtaken by defibrillators in the next year or so at the current rate.

[Adamant36]

Hmm, well ok then, let's limit it to things which aren't already part of something else which is rendered on the map

How is a railway signal any less a part of the railway line then a highway stop is a part of the highway? Both are completely dependent on the way for them to have any meaning or usefulness as objects.

[imagico]

Please keep the discussion on topic - my examples were meant to illustrate how pointless it is to claim a necessity to render something from use numbers. For some reason it has become an urban myth that this kind of stands above other reasons for or against adding a new feature here.

If you want to have something newly rendered here

• discuss in a balanced fashion if and how this serves the goals of this style. And balanced here means not cherry picking arguments that seem to benefit what you want and dropping all other considerations.
• develop a suggestion on how to render it that integrates well into the design of this style. Also discuss this in a balanced fashion and consider alternatives.
• revisit the consideration if it makes sense to add this feature based on the concrete design developed. Does it really benefit the style in this form? Or does it maybe cause more problems than it solves?
• make suggestions for other features to drop from rendering in return to avoid overloading this style with too many features.

By the way - so far we render all POIs - with a single exception (turning circles) as standalone objects. Like for example: ford=yes will render with a symbol even in the middle of nowhere, kilometers away from the next road. This is a significant contributor to the diminishing readability of the map due to the map being often plastered with POI symbols at the high zoom levels - without context and without consistent prioritization. See also #3635, #3880.

[SomeoneElseOSM]

@imagico Your reply above reads to me very much like you're trying to deter contributions (any contributions) to this map style. I'm sure that that's not the case, but your original response to @boothym's comment above was to negate something they'd made as a throw-away comment (that there are a lot of defibrillators in OSM) before @boothym then went on to demonstrate what the effect would actually be. To be clear, the first in the list of purposes listed at CARTOGRAPHY.md is "an important feedback mechanism for mappers". That purpose does imply that "things that mappers map should get rendered", which incidentally also addresses this comment above.

To be clear, I don't believe that rendering defibrillators would go against any of the purposes and goals at CARTOGRAPHY.md. There were some concerns raised earlier in the ancient history of this issue which suggested potential problems with clashes with other features; if so it'd be great to see examples. A map (covering Great Britain and Ireland) that shows defibrillators is here - if there is a general problem with other features, someone ought to be able to find an example there.

[imagico]

I am not sure what you are criticizing here. What i am trying to do - and what i have explicitly stated to be my intention - is to bring the discussion here into a direction that has the potential to come to a consensus conclusion, whatever that might be. I don't understand how this can be read to be meant to deter contributions (either development contributions or discussion contributions) - but i would welcome pointers how you get that impression.

In general with feature addition suggestion issues i am often torn between commenting on the discussion or not. I want to allow an open discourse on matters without this being limited by my narrow perspective. But i also quite frequently have the impression that without some guidance from the maintainers discussions can lead to a narrow tunnel vision among participants based on the firm desire to have the feature added and then when someone makes a PR people are severely disappointed because the maintainers do not just adopt the view the commenters on the issue have reaffirmed each other of but take a critical look and bring up issues that have not been part of the discussion. Because of that i try to phrase my comments on issues like this in a way that encourages a broader look at the context beyond the horizon of the individual participants and at the same time avoiding to impose my personal perspective in a way that limits the open discussion on if and how a certain feature can be added in a beneficial way.

I have no personal investment in this issue in one way or the other - i can see arguments speaking against it as well as for it, i can see positive aspects about design sketches that have been made as well as negative ones. As you can see i have not closed this issue. I encourage further discussion and further design experiments. I can imagine that with some more work on symbol design i could support a PR implementing this in some way but i am in no way sure about it.

Maybe i can also describe my approach as this: I would like to see us striving more for excellence, in particular w.r.t. feature additions. This style has not only a far reach to mappers and map users, it is also used by many other map styles as a design blueprint copying design ideas we implement. That means if we implement good design this increases the likeliness for good design ideas to be copied by other styles. And likewise if we implement mediocre cartography it is likely that this will be copied as well. And taking into account this responsibility is part of our documented goals as well.

To be clear, I don't believe that rendering defibrillators would go against any of the purposes and goals at CARTOGRAPHY.md. There were some concerns raised earlier in the ancient history of this issue which suggested potential problems with clashes with other features; if so it'd be great to see examples. A map (covering Great Britain and Ireland) that shows defibrillators is here - if there is a general problem with other features, someone ought to be able to find an example there.

This is a bit of an off-topic tangent here - but do you have an opinion on #3635 (comment) and do you think this style should abandon language neutrality and opt for using 'AED' as symbol for defibrillators?

[SomeoneElseOSM]

On the specific question of abandoning a symbol in favour of text saying "AED" - no, I don't think that would make sense for a style designed to work everywhere around the world. More generally the "too many icons" issue raised at #3635 (comment) is valid, but that's for a couple of reasons:

• There's no map legend visible at osm.org that explains what the symbols mean. There is a "map key", but it includes only 3 or 4 point icons. There's also https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/SymbolsTab , but you really have to hunt, and know the way that OSM wiki maintainers like to maintain the wiki, to find that.

• Designing lots of symbols for different features is difficult, but there are a few examples of point symbols where more commonality between similar symbols would help functionality. I wonder how many symbols someone unfamiliar with this style would recognise either standalone, or in context at openstreetmap.org?

The bigger problem of these two is "no map legend". The list in the wiki is useful to experienced OSM mappers, but something explaining what the symbols mean doesn't need to display OSM tag info, it just needs to be a dense chart of icons with a rough description of each.

[imagico]

Moving the general discussion not specific to defibrillators to #3635 (comment).

[ghost]

Whilst late, if I may say, comparing defibrillators to lane tagging, which is considerably more complex to render, or highway stops which could actually clutter up the map, is not a good comparison. Defibrillators provide life-saving services; surely that gives it some prioritisation on whether it should be rendered or not? From the last time this was mentioned, the defibrillator count on OSM has risen to 58,000, and that number is rapidly increasing thanks to coordinated community efforts to map these devices.

This is what this could look like. We already render ATMs, water fountains, benches and other PoIs that would “clutter” the map much more than the occasional AED would.

[ghost]

Furthermore, the above is a universally recognised symbol for AEDs, as approved by ISO 7010

[pnorman]

I've locked this conversation, because the conversation has become full of destructive behavior. Please take a step back. The code of conduct and explicitly applies to these issue discussions.

In particular, I want to call out a few points from the values

• Even if the intent was to provoke, do not rise to it. It is the responsibility of all parties to de-escalate conflict when it arises.
• Remember that sometimes it is best to refrain entirely from commenting.
• Derailing: stay on topic; if you want to talk about something else, start a new conversation.
• Unconstructive criticism: don't merely decry the current state of affairs; offer—or at least solicit—suggestions as to how things may be improved.
• Snarking (pithy, unproductive, sniping comments)

Repeated behavior in violation of the code of conduct may result in enforcement measures, including bans and other forceful measures.

[jeisenbe]

I recommend not rendering this feature.

Defibrillators are not useful for the user of a general-purpose map.

If you need to know where a defibrillator is in an emergency, this style is not a good choice because we will only show the defibrillator if it is not obstructed by another nearby icon. Many times the closest defibrillator would not be rendered.

In an emergency it would be necessary to use a special-purpose map rendering which showed all defibrillators without exception. It would also be better to use a search tool which would highlight all nearby defibrillators and find the closest based on various routing options (foot, bike etc.)

We could choose to show defibrillators simply to provide mapper feedback, but there are many common features that we do not render, e.g. streetlights, stop signs, etc, because they are not necessary on a general-purpose map rendering. There are also some very common features like water wells which would be more useful to add.

To limit the proliferation of icons we need to be selective about which new icons are added. They should be immediately identifiable, since there are too many icons in this style for a map key or legend to be useful. Unfortunately the “standard” iconography for defibrillators is not very intuitive at the small icon size we use, and the standard green color does not match our other healthcare and emergency features. While I work in the healthcare field, I do not find the proposed icon to be strongly identifiable, and I suspect it is not clear to the general public.