Replies: 6 comments 28 replies
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As you know, at the moment it is an experimental library and the main goal right now is to validate interest, etc. Really appreciate your interest and feedback but Let me include here @davidortinau and @Redth who can maybe share more details. |
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Good luck with you and your team. If any platform and tool set serve your organisation's need, kindly use it. No need to wait for Maui. |
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@jsuarezruiz @davidortinau @Redth We are now four months from this thread's start and we are pretty much at the same point and Windows- isn't even available with the nightly's making it impossible for us to test on our principal build target. We build custom business software for our clients and have a few products in the works which will be public commercial products that we have been hoping to be able to use .net and maui to provide multi platform on a single codebase but it's proving to be impossible. I get that maui and maui graphic controls are still pre-release (1 year? 2 years past due for maui?) but at some point if you want us to adopt new technology for any concrete development other than toy mobile apps, there needs to be more movement. Right now, MS is giving us the impression that maui and maui graphics controls will be replaced before even being released as it's taking so long. It's crippling enough for business apps that you are not planing on having a DataGridView compatible control on the main branch, without easy access to create our own by reusing some of the supporting code found in this project, it is a major undertaking to build one from scratch with all the required features to be useable in a commercial product. Building a quality control like a datagrid is a project all on it's own with months of development to get it just right... From all the replies you have been making here and on other threads, you keep repeating you are validating interest which is great but how exactly are we supposed to get a feel for it when we can't even use it? Right now you have thousands of developers waiting for movement on your part to be able to assess if maui is even a viable project or if the risk that it never makes it to release is too high to justify the learning curve. We in the commercial world, need to see more concrete actions, reliable timelines and working libraries to test with. It's getting hard to take maui seriously and by consequence, microsoft development technology as well, especially when like right now, this project does not even work on the company's primary and the only supported platform it owns. |
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There are many commercial control vendors that would provide you with all you need. |
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@saint4eva syncfusion, telerik and devexpress are all using these graphics libs for their grids which means they are waiting for the team to step up as well. devexpress has a datagrid out now but supports mobile only at the moment. hypothetically this or that company may release datagrids and other controls for all the platforms supported by maui but if there is no or little commitment by microsoft to these essential base projects, we will end up with just another toolkit that is replaced before it's acceptance like others that came before it. we can't base business decisions on perhaps and maybe's. these are decisions that will affect businesses for years to come, take up lots of time and will require hundreds of thousands of dollars in investments for training, tooling, testing etc we need for microsoft to step up to the plate and show us maui will have the funding and human resources to back maui and these base projects for us to assess it's viability for the commercial use of this framework. right now, it's floundering like so many open source projects that end up being abandoned after 6 months or a year... we need more predictability and transparency from microsoft. |
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@alaingaudreau I appreciate your passion for this experiment! This is why we released the code, to receive this feedback. It would be very helpful to get some specific details from you about how drawn UI controls would meet your app business objectives. Let's discuss david.ortinau@microsoft.com
I want to make sure you are seeing what we are publishing. We work hard to be transparent and visible. https://themesof.net - .NET public roadmaps .NET MAUI is officially supported since we shipped RC1 in April this year. GA will at Microsoft Build 2022. From here on .NET MAUI is on the .NET release schedule. This repository (Microsoft.Maui.Graphics.Controls) is an experiment as stated on the main page. It is unsupported. You mention the need for libraries, and this is the primary call to action now. We have heard from many library maintainers that they have been waiting for RC and GA of .NET MAUI to work on transitioning their libs. That includes expanding some from mobile to desktop. In just the past week we've seen many new releases of libraries with .NET MAUI support. Re: controls like DataGrid, we haven't put any new controls on our roadmap. The focus of the product is quality, stability, and supporting the ecosystem in this initial transition to .NET 6. We will be considering more controls in the future, and in the meantime look to control vendors to meet needs. Note, you can always use any platform native controls in .NET MAUI by writing your own handler (to use the WinUI DataGrid for example). |
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I am also waiting for non-experimental Comet for our next generation apps. |
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Clancey and some other guys are working hard towards achieving that. And moreover, some apps built with Comet are already published in Play store and App store. |
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It seems to me that Comet was far more matured/complete than Graphics.Controls. Both are vital to MAUI success. |
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At what point can we expect Microsoft to make a commitment to this effort and move it beyond experimental or kill it? I would hope one day soon this becomes the default engine for Maui. From the developers and early-adopters I've spoken to, the consensus is that out of the box Maui UX are way too poor for a proper product in today's market. End users expect a lot more spit and polish than Maui can offer and it's one reason Flutter is killing it. Being a life long C# engineer I know there's more that goes in to selecting a product platform but sadly the UX is a real blocker. |
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Time come for Microsoft to move experiment projects to beyond steps.Hope they will listen it. |
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After .NET Maui team has shipped Maui, they will start focusing on other areas such as drawn controls and MVU C# (Comet) |
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Take a long look at flutter. We are an MS shop but Maui at this point (however late) is embarrassingly lacking in the presentation department. My sense is the lack of commitment may be a tacit acknowledgement by MS bean counters that google ate their lunch.
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@saint4eva syncfusion, telerik and devexpress are all using these graphics libs for their grids which means they are waiting for the team to step up as well.
devexpress has a datagrid out now but supports mobile only at the moment.
hypothetically this or that company may release datagrids and other controls for all the platforms supported by maui but if there is no or little commitment by microsoft to these essential base projects, we will end up with just another toolkit that is replaced before it's acceptance like others that came before it.
we can't base business decisions on perhaps and maybe's.
these are decisions that will affect businesses for years to come, take up lots of time and will require hundreds of thousands of dollars in investments for training, tooling, testing etc
we need for microsoft to step up to the plate and show us maui will have the funding and human resources to back maui and these base projects for us to assess it's viability for the commercial use of this framework.
right now, it's floundering like so many open source projects that end up being abandoned after 6 months or a year...
we need more predictability and transparency from microsoft.
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If we were to fund and incorporate this controls project into .NET MAUI, how would that change things for you? Can you give me some examples of what you mean by presentation? |
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And "spit and polish", and "ux is a real blocker"? |
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It would have significantly changed the existing state of our application. Right now, we're only released to Alpha test for Android, because in iOS "many things aren't working" (UI bugs of various sorts, including layout or behavior). All because Xamarin Forms is wrapping iOS native controls and has nuances (that we haven't resolved yet, but will soon). In the last year, we ported our 2012 app that used our own self-built pixel-perfect UI, to Xamarin Forms as part of a facelift, and updating to the latest tech. It was a gross disappointment and a shocking experience (compared to the quality of Microsoft stuff that we adopted pre-2010). At this point, this current project of ours will probably not use Pixel-Perfect; that ship has sailed. But had it been available a year ago, we would have most certainly used it. If Pixel-Perfect for MAUI gains commitment/funding from Microsoft, then we would put our eggs into this basket for future projects, which include mobile games. Since it's easy to make SkiaSharp directly modify OpenGL Texture2D objects on the GPU, this enables an efficient pipeline between Maui.Graphics.Controls into the gaming world, with just a few thousand lines of code to create the adapter layer (that's how we did it for Urho.NET and Avalonia). |
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@davidortinau Currently we use XF with a small list of collections/controls to reduce the bug surface area we are exposed to. To reduce bugs and platform inconsistencies further (and open up the web in future) we have implemented 1/3 of our UI so far in SkiaSharp and are migrating the rest. It would have saved a huge amount of effort had there been drawn controls at the start in XF, in terms of reduced bugs and inconsistencies. Drawn controls gives people choice, and most developers would choose the combination of pixel-perfect views/few bugs/high perf over native views/many bugs/low perf. Since it is would be a fundamental choice in MAUI I don't think there would be a problem getting this information out and it would reduce the reputation of MAUI as a buggy platform. I am estimating the time before MAUI becomes less buggy than current XF, at which point we could adopt it. I am thinking 1 year based on feedback from other devs. This is very long for us given that XF is stuck on mono (which we get platform-specific bugs from that would probably be fixed in dotnet7). It seems counterintuitive that adding an option could stabilize something, but for drawn controls I believe this could be the case, and you could get what we would consider a usable version of MAUI ready in perhaps 6 months. |
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It would be interesting to know what Skia controls you have created, the needs covered, the ones you have, etc. You can write me an email if you want to share more details :) |
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It is a pity these projects like Comet are just "personal" experimental. |
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@davidortinau there are other folks like myself that are looking to use pixel perfect controls in Blazor WASM as well, along with future support for Blazor Server (and Hybrid). MAUI.Graphics and MAUI.Graphics.Controls could be a huge deal that benefits not just MAUI, but the larger UX ecosystem in general. |
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Hi @jsuarezruiz , in order to gauge whether or not we should put our eggs into the "Maui.Graphics.Controls" basket, we need to know more about Microsoft's planned allocation of labor for this project (i.e. "FTE" = full-time-equivalents).
I'm not sure if you only are given 10 hrs/week to work on this, or 40 hrs.. And if there are plans to add to the "Graphics.Controls" team. We need to know the truth in this matter -- how serious is Microsoft about producing a "Graphics.Controls" library which is "production ready" -- and how soon do they estimate before it's in Beta?
If instead Microsoft is planning for it to be implemented mostly by volunteers in Open-Source environment, then we need to know that as well, and then need to figure if this is a feasible plan.
I love, love, love the idea of Microsoft producing a "pixel-perfect-solution" for all to use. IMO, it's their most important Add-on to MAUI, in that it will apply across-the-board for all platforms/scenarios -- iOS, Android, Windows, Mac, Linux, and Web browsers -- AND... best of all -- GAMES!
It was a breeze to integrate Avalonia with Urho.NET. Similarly, Maui.Graphics.Controls offers this capability as well, as we can simply render the output to a GPU texture that is rendered in the Game UI. This can be done not only for Urho.NET, but also for ANY Game Engine that integrates to .NET/Mono.
I've been trying to put the breaks on our effort with Avalonia, to determine if Maui.Graphics.Controls will be ready in time, and we do NOT have enough resources to spend months writing the missing parts of Graphics.Controls! So, we need to know how much effort/money Microsoft is going to pour into this, so that we can set our expectations more accurately, and make decisions based on the truth, rather than fantasy.
In short, can you please tell us Microsoft's commitment to Graphics.Controls (in terms of "FTE", investment, and intentions for how this work will get done, and when). Even ballpark estimates/guesses would be great. Thanks!
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