Rebalancing the techniques

[Sanglorian]

On #1835 @JaskRendix pointed out:

I would like if you can check the proportion between power / recharge, because in some cases (eg Ruby or Maori), I think we need to lower the power of set a recharge of 3 (even 4).

I agree, I think we need to tweak the balance of some of the techniques. But there are some other considerations that have been knocking around in my head:

• Do we want to expand the element system from the classic Wu Xing 5 to 7, 10, or more elements? See Wu Xing (5 Types) Discussion aka. no "flying" type #991 for discussion a couple years back about this. I am leaning towards yes, I think the five elements have ended up being a bit limiting for us. But if we do make this change, we will probably want to revisit the techniques in that light - we will need more to fill out the other elements, and the power of some may change depending on which element they belong to.
• Do we want to have a progression of techniques, so monsters start with weaker techniques and learn stronger ones as they level up? If so, we should probably identify which techniques we think are weaker and which we think are stronger. Then there will be some techniques that can afford to be unbalanced, because they might only be accessible at high levels or through a TM.
• Are there other types of technique we should add? For example, some kind of Block or Guard that protects against a technique may change the balance of certain techniques (a powerful technique with a long recharge may be less powerful if your opponent anticipates you will use it, and Blocks it).

So I thought I'd set up this issue to kick off discussion around these broader considerations, as well as identify specific techniques that may need rebalancing.

I'll start by flagging Wallow and Shuriken, both of which have felt a bit too powerful in the early game.

[JaskRendix]

@Qiangong2 @Sanglorian

removed because pointless, it's the wrong place to discuss it, moreover the data will change with the conversion of 18 technique to aether.

regarding technique my suggestions:

• eventually define a range of power for total power (sum of each power technique in a moveset);
• eventually define a proportion (special vs physical techniques), eg 10 technique in the moveset (JSON monster), at least 3 special;

regarding nr of elements, mostly I don't care (if 10/12/13), but the actual number is not enough.
I enjoy coding, opened a PR for testing #1852 , discuss it on Discord, then let me know what the community decides.

[DavidLiang1129]

@Qiangong2 @Sanglorian

I agree with this, but we need to look at this in a more open way. I pulled out some data and it confirms a situation of unbalance. Unbalance makes sense between stage2 vs stage1, but among basic the unbalance must be in a specific range. Here some data: power_moves.ods

• sheet1 total of power for each monster;
• sheet2 nr of techniques (range.special) for each monster;

regarding the sum of power (each technique) for each monster
4 columns (monster, evolution stage, nr moves (moveset), and total), total is the sum of power; here some data about basic monsters with 5 techniques, sorted by total of power:

top monsters (these monsters often have no "special techniques" - range special)

tetrchimp	basic	5	12.6000000000001 (avg 2.52 power per tech)
cardiling	basic	5	12.2
pantherafira	basic	5	11.5
turnipper	basic	5	10.55

some average

nudiflot_male	basic	5	8.55000000000001
nudiflot_female	basic	5	8.54999999999995
boltnu	basic	5	8.5
chromeye	basic	5	8.5

bottom monsters

botbot	basic	5	6.34999999999991
noctula	basic	5	6.25
anoleaf	basic	5	6.20000000000005
vamporm	basic	5	5.5  (avg 1.1 power per tech)

vamporn vs tetrchimp? cardiling vs anoleaf? unbalanced fights

some values will change when #1821 will be merged

eventually we can set a range: eg basic monster, avg values from 1.4 to 1.6 (total for 5 techs, 7 / 8) so we can avoid massive differences as well as setting a flag if in the moveset there are no special techniques (special = 0 power)

regarding the nr of techniques range.special for each monster

eruptibus	8	4	4  -> out of 8 technique, 4 special, 4 anything else
capinyah	15	0	15 -> unbalanced, 15 techniques,  0 special, 15 anything else

151 out of 264 monsters have 0 special range techniques

here #1850 I propose to convert some of the existing ones into special, this will help to alleviate the issue: range.special is 0 power, no damage.

regarding the nr of elements/types (wood, etc), I agree, adding new ones (from 4 to > 10) is a good choice, because lately we had some issues to categorize new monsters.

Sorry, I would like to ask which specific number of "unclassified Tuxemon" are there? I think I can try it based on Wu Xing classification

[JaskRendix]

Sorry, I would like to ask which specific number of "unclassified Tuxemon" are there? I think I can try it based on Wu Xing classification

There aren't "unclassified Tuxemon". The discussion is about increasing the number of types/elements.

[DavidLiang1129]

Sorry, I would like to ask which specific number of "unclassified Tuxemon" are there? I think I can try it based on Wu Xing classification

There aren't "unclassified Tuxemon". The discussion is about increasing the number of types/elements.

Sorry, it may be a little late for me to post my opinion (because I was a little busy the last few days). I asked a friend of mine and he proposed four new elements, namely light, dark, wind and electricity, and I have some new ideas.

[DavidLiang1129]

Sorry, I would like to ask which specific number of "unclassified Tuxemon" are there? I think I can try it based on Wu Xing classification

There aren't "unclassified Tuxemon". The discussion is about increasing the number of types/elements.

I think for the time being, 10 elements is enough, which is Wu Xing and my friend's four elements and "Normal" which I think of as a combination of all the elements of Wu Xing

[DavidLiang1129]

Sorry, I would like to ask which specific number of "unclassified Tuxemon" are there? I think I can try it based on Wu Xing classification

There aren't "unclassified Tuxemon". The discussion is about increasing the number of types/elements.

For the other elements, my idea is that they can be realized by permutations and combinations of the existing 10 elements, such as: Sky = normal + wind (wings usually create wind when flying), ice or frost = water + wind (cold wind creates ice or frost when blowing water), hero = normal + Light (Tuxemon with righteous light), magic = light + wind (magic is like this in my knowledge, then we can match the skills of other elements) Shadow, maybe ghost, Then it would be dark + wind (there's an ancient Chinese word for "Yin wind"(阴风) which means there might be a ghost or something floating by) and the venom would be dark + water (evil water = venom)

[Sanglorian]

Sorry, I would like to ask which specific number of "unclassified Tuxemon" are there? I think I can try it based on Wu Xing classification

There aren't "unclassified Tuxemon". The discussion is about increasing the number of types/elements.

For the other elements, my idea is that they can be realized by permutations and combinations of the existing 10 elements, such as: Sky = normal + wind (wings usually create wind when flying), ice or frost = water + wind (cold wind creates ice or frost when blowing water), hero = normal + Light (Tuxemon with righteous light), magic = light + wind (magic is like this in my knowledge, then we can match the skills of other elements) Shadow, maybe ghost, Then it would be dark + wind (there's an ancient Chinese word for "Yin wind"(阴风) which means there might be a ghost or something floating by) and the venom would be dark + water (evil water = venom)

Thanks for sharing! I think that's a creative way to make use of the types. Even in a larger type system, there might be some of this evocative association - e.g. Shadow/Sky for a floating ghost or Normal/Sky for a bird - so it's worth thinking about.

[DavidLiang1129]

Sorry, I would like to ask which specific number of "unclassified Tuxemon" are there? I think I can try it based on Wu Xing classification

There aren't "unclassified Tuxemon". The discussion is about increasing the number of types/elements.

For the other elements, my idea is that they can be realized by permutations and combinations of the existing 10 elements, such as: Sky = normal + wind (wings usually create wind when flying), ice or frost = water + wind (cold wind creates ice or frost when blowing water), hero = normal + Light (Tuxemon with righteous light), magic = light + wind (magic is like this in my knowledge, then we can match the skills of other elements) Shadow, maybe ghost, Then it would be dark + wind (there's an ancient Chinese word for "Yin wind"(阴风) which means there might be a ghost or something floating by) and the venom would be dark + water (evil water = venom)

Thanks for sharing! I think that's a creative way to make use of the types. Even in a larger type system, there might be some of this evocative association - e.g. Shadow/Sky for a floating ghost or Normal/Sky for a bird - so it's worth thinking about.

Thank you, but you misunderstand. I mean, is the current element system too complicated?

[freshreplicant]

I would advocate for going beyond the Wu Xing system. It would even just add more flavour to different Tuxemon and allow type assignments that feel more natural, rather than trying to fit every monster into a narrow category.

Slightly beyond the scope of the discussion here, but I think outside of the two existing campaigns, it would be great if the type system could be made modular so that each campaign could have it's own, or that later mods could add types or build on a campaign's existing system.

[HippasusTwo]

I would prefer more than 5 types. Fire, Water, Wood, Metal and Earth feels very restrictive and bland.
What one can consider (if it has not been considered already - the forums are dead) is that having a slight imbalance can make things more interesting / provide late game interest or give a sort of 'hard mode' for early game or mono-runs. For instance, most types having two weaknesses but two of them having just one, and two of them having four/three weaknesses but those two counter the stronger two, so it's a 'balanced imbalance'. If all types have the same amount of weaknesses and strengths, that makes them a bit bland. With only 5 types however you can't have that kind of 'careful balanced imbalance', because then you wouldn't be left with any normally balanced types.
Modularity would be good.

It seems like a majority want more types. To bring things back to the original topic, an easy way to expand number of techniques is simply to allow upgraded versions of older techniques, like a GenericAttack++, which would also allow easy animation re-use. There could be some technique progression where one would have a choice between an upgraded old technique or replacing it entirely, giving the trainer a dilemma and some decision making beyond simple button smashing. But if that's too much work, some system to replace techniques with new ones seems a must. Being stuck with the same moves forever is dull.
Gimmick techniques can be fun for winning otherwise 'impossible' battles. A block or substitute with a limitation on consecutive uses (or on the things it blocks! say, you could have one that blocks only fire techniques, and have a tutor that can transform your block into different type blockers outside of battle.) can be a fun one.
I suggest having a gimmick battle with a hideously overpowered trainer who nonetheless only knows certain type moves. And another gimmick battle with an overpowered trainer who only ever moves second (and can be statused asleep/confused/dropped into an abyss or something), and another that has their main attack a technique that leaves you with at least 1 hp on the first attack so a 'revenge' technique would wipe them out. They could be a trio of bosses or an optional battle with some kind of good reward; their overpowered techniques wouldn't necessarily be available to the player if one couldn't balance other AI well enough on countering those moves with their appropriate strategies, but their counters should be easily obtained (or one could make them overpowered simply by high level rather than the techniques themselves being that overpowered if on par, which is probably easier).