Submarine feedback and defense balance against planes/helis

[Submarine-Player]

I've been an avid sub player and even before the update had grievances with how ww2 plane and helis detection of sub works. If the carrier/heli player is skilled there's no way for subs to scape out in the open and its even worse now with the submerge delay which makes its riskier to surface to use AA defense against helis and Seawolf (level 9) doesn't even have AA defense.

From my perspective the main issue with the current setup is that helis/plane players can just randomly and blindly scan a wide area and if there are any undetected subs lurking around even from a distance stationary and with sensors off (full stealth no radar no noise) the helis/planes will still blindly detect the sub and the player can just blindly track the mouse to follow the direction in which the aerial ships are dropping torpedoes until it's sunk. I don't know if this is by design or is super skilled players exploiting a function or even cheating but the end result is unfair and nearly unsurpassable with skill alone to be able to escape alive as a sub

Not to mention correct me if im wrong unrealistic for helis/planes detect randomly a sub in full stealth mode (no noise, no radar)

Another issue related to this is when killing a player with sub they respawn in the proximity turn essex and immediately send planes to you not giving time to reload almost assured death depending of how close they spawn.

Its up to the devs to figure out how to better balance this but my suggestion is a list of the following.

• Make it so underwater subs get a visual cue of helis/planes to better be avoid them
• Make it so subs can shoot down helis/planes while under
• Make it easier for undetected subs to dodge helis/planes torpedoes
• Make it so stationary subs or moving below cavitation speeds aren't blindly detected by helis/planes scrubbing the area
• Make it so planes and helis/planes need to stay on the same spot more time to be able to detect stealth mode subs not yet detected by the seeking/hunting player

NOTE: Not all suggestions need to be applied even just one of the above suggestions would be an improvement

My second feedback/point is Yasen rocket torpedoes don't work at close range anymore like its used to before the update. This severely limits Yasen ability to do surprise attacks since without its rocket torpedoes it can't sink high level ships.

One possible explanation i read is that rocket torpedoes need togo under first but even if it doesn't the impact should trigger explosion of the torp or at the very least reduce the distance needed for it to work on big ships

[finnbear]

Thanks for your comprehensive feedback!

Make it so underwater subs get a visual cue of helis/planes to better be avoid them

Is there any real-life basis for allowing submarines to see airborne aircraft?

Make it so subs can shoot down helis/planes while under

Some subs do carry submarine-launched SAM's, but not any of the ones in game, to my knowledge.

Make it easier for undetected subs to dodge helis/planes torpedoes

I'm guessing this would involve making the torpedoes drop earlier and take longer to descend to submarine depth. This is risky, and could set off a chain reaction of planes not working as well.

Make it so stationary subs or moving below cavitation speeds aren't blindly detected by helis/planes scrubbing the area

This is the main way we can solve the problem you describe! 👍

My second feedback/point is Yasen rocket torpedoes don't work at close range anymore like its used to before the update. This severely limits Yasen ability to do surprise attacks since without its rocket torpedoes it can't sink high level ships.

This was an intentional bugfix. The previous behavior of rocket torpedoes working at point-blank range was severely unrealistic, and basically amounted to giving the Yasen 4 extra torpedoes. Now they take time, corresponding to the fact that they ascend to cruising altitude, wait for their guidance to take effect, and then descend to drop their torpedo.

One possible explanation i read is that rocket torpedoes need togo under first but even if it doesn't the impact should trigger explosion of the torp or at the very least reduce the distance needed for it to work on big ships

To be clear, rocket torpedoes work by launching from a torpedo tube, floating to the water surface, igniting a rocket booster to ascend to altitude, cruising, dropping (IRL on a timer, in game by sensing a target), deploying a torpedo (IRL with a parachute) into the water, and then the torpedo does normal torpedo stuff.

[Crusader48]

I also agree. If the submarine has sensors off and is below the cavitation level it shouldn't be easily detected by aircraft. Something I do want to add is that in real life the seawolf class is stealthy until about 20kn. It is said to make less noise traveling at 20kn than the previous submarine classes do when tied up against the pier. I noticed that in the game it is only stealthy until about 16kn or so. An increase to 20kn without cavitation would be more realistic. Also, doesn’t the golf submarine have 3 missiles? For a level 10 sub I would recommend the borei, typhoon or the Oscar ll class. I would personally go with the Typhoon because of its massive size and weapons load, but the Oscar ll is just as good because it can carry the status-6 / poseidon oceanic multipurpose system. I feel like adding the poseidon would be a great addition to the game because of its speed and its power.
Thanks.

[finnbear]

Something I do want to add is that in real life the seawolf class is stealthy until about 20kn

The Seawolf already has a higher cavitation speed than other subs. Do you have a citation for 20kn, other than that being the value used by Cold Waters?

Also, doesn’t the golf submarine have 3 missiles?

We definitely can't give the Golf nuclear missiles, due to balancing reasons.

For a level 10 sub I would recommend the borei, typhoon or the Oscar ll class. I would personally go with the Typhoon because of its massive size and weapons load, but the Oscar ll is just as good because it can carry the status-6 / poseidon oceanic multipurpose system. I feel like adding the poseidon would be a great addition to the game because of its speed and its power.

Server mentioned having a chat about us (not currently wanting to) add more USSR/Russian submarines. If we go the SSBN route, there are plenty of other options. If we go the underwater-missile-truck route, I'm not quite sure what the options.

[Crusader48]

Here is a citation from http://www.military-today.com/navy/top_10_attack_submarines.htm "Most submarines need to keep their speed down to as little as 5 knots to avoid detection by passive sonar arrays, while the Seawolf class are credited with being able to cruise at 20 kots and still be impossible to locate. A Seawolf at 25 knots makes less noise than an older Los Angeles class submarine tied up alongside the pier." On top of this Wikipedia for the Seawolf class submarine also says under the general characteristics table that it's silent running speed is 20kn while its top speed is 35kn. Most other sources will all agree that its silent running speed is 20kn. As for the Golf, ok I can sort of see how that would be a problem so don't worry about it. For a lvl 10 SSBN if you really don't want to use a Russian sub you could use the Vanguard class SSBN from the Royal Navy because this game doesn't really have any good british subs yet. You could also use the Triomphant class, although I would recommend the Vanguard due to better sensors/sonar. This sub would be a great lvl 10 submarine. It could be armed with 4 Spearfish torpedoes, 2 or so decoys and 1 Trident ll D5 SLBM.

I have already discussed this with server and so I think that for a nuclear missile it should be a really powerful missile that takes about a minute to reload, but can be sped up by receiving exp, and delivers a lot of damage. This missile would climb to an extremely high altitude and then come down onto where ever u point ur mouse. Since it takes time for the missile to reach that altitude there should be a 10 second warning in the area that the missile will hit to let ships know what is coming. The warning could be a red circle or something similar. This might give some players a little time to escape. If the missile directly hits a ship, it should be instantly killed. If the ship is in the "blast area" but isn't directly hit it should take damage (damage will depend on how close you are to the center). Another thing about this missile is that it can't be shot down by SAMs. The reason is that all of the SAMs used in this game don't really have the capabilities of shooting down SLBMs in real life (there might be a few experimental ones but they aren't yet deployed on ships). I don't know if this would work, but since nuclear missiles do release radiation you could make it so that ships that go within the "blast zone" for a certain period of time after the detonation of the missile (maybe a few minutes), would take damage per every second that they are within this blast zone. It doesn't have to be too much, but there should be some because of the radiation. This would also act as a deterant for other ships that try to sneak in and steal your exp from the kill. Submarines shouldn't get affected that much from the blast of a nuclear missile (unless they are on the surface) beacause water is very good at stopping radiation (which is why water is used in nuclear reactors on land). This is pretty much it, if I have any other suggestions I will let you know.

Thanks :)

[finnbear]

Thanks, your feedback is very reasonable and helpful! Note that if/when we raise Seawolf's cavitation speeds, it will only be able to achieve 20kn at high depth i.e. it will cavitate at lower speeds when it is closer to the surface (just like it, and every other sub, do now).

[Submarine-Player]

. I noticed that in the game it is only stealthy until about 16kn or so

17.6kn in my experience but yes 20kn would be nice !

[Submarine-Player]

@finnbear I've been thinking over the subject of Yasen Rocket Torps, if they use tubes why not replace them with 4 extra set65 torps and ditch the rocket torps?

That would make Yasen better equipped to take on big ships like Iowa, kirov, Montana, Yam, Clem.

[Crusader48]

Bro, the submerge delay is only 1 second. All you have to do is press submerge when your just about to reach the surface. It takes practise but once you get it down the delay isn't that bad. And If ww2 planes couldn't take out subs, battleships would be useless. If that were the case everyone would play subs. Plus, rocket torps aren't even suposed to hit ships, they are made to attack subs. And it can take out a clem and kirov ez. I mean, instead of focusing on Yasen we should focus on higher lvl subs like the Seawolf and future SSBN. Yasen is really good as it is because it can kill every other ship that is its lvl or lower, and even some lvl 9 ships. And also I have killed an Iowa with yasen.

[Submarine-Player]

Im managing, just saying it changes the dynamic of the game to approach fleets, if you can't even take down one ship in one go it isn't very fun.

And If ww2 planes couldn't take out subs, battleships would be useless.

I reckon that so for the sake of balance they can... my point was just to contrast with your critique about rocket torpedoes being used against ships in a discussion about balance and compromise.

Which brings me to the original point in my post that subs with sensor off and below cavitation speeds should be able to avoid helis/planes random detection

I agree we need level 10 sub, seawolf torps should be stronger and i too sunk iowas with Yasen but found it easier with Kirov.

[Crusader48]

I see what you mean now. Rocket torps should be able to attack ships, due to balance issues. Their drop range should maybe be reduced, not by too much, but maybe by a little less than half their current distance.

The mk48s should be more powerful and I totally agree with avoiding planes/helis. When below cavitation speeds and sensors off, planes/helis should only be able to attack them if they are hovering over them for a few seconds (this gives seawolf the advantage of higher cavitation speeds).

I don't think there are any improvements to made made to Yasen's, other than what we just mentioned above.

[Submarine-Player]

The current range is far too great for big ships, by the time they drop ships already on alert or on the run. it should be reduced enough so that they can effectively be used in combination with other weapons in a surprise attack (subs greatest advantage) preferably on vulnerable spot.

I don't think there are any improvements to made made to Yasen's, other than what we just mentioned above.

Yep its mostly a consolation prize while we wait for level 10 sub

[Crusader48]

Fully Agree :)

[Submarine-Player]

@finnbear

Thanks, your feedback is very reasonable and helpful! Note that if/when we raise Seawolf's cavitation speeds, it will only be able to achieve 20kn at high depth i.e. it will cavitate at lower speeds when it is closer to the surface (just like it, and every other sub, do now).

btw can you add a manual cap setting for speed that way we could maneuver around without speed fluctuating?
I guess cruise control would be the name?

[finnbear]

A 3 state button is a bit more complicated, and I'm not quite sure the additional complexity is justified (if you are reloading, your cavitation status is less relevant)

[Submarine-Player]

Ok but doesn't the reload affect just the immediate proximity while cavitation has a bigger radios of detection?

Another option that occurs to me is that you turn the button on to maneuver at the stealth speed and after you turn it off you maintain that previous stealth speed you were using unless you change position or speed with mouse or kb. Sound good?

[finnbear]

Ok but doesn't the reload affect just the immediate proximity while cavitation has a bigger radios of detection?

It's true, but the number of players who will understand and benefit from that distinction can be counted on one hand, while every player will experience the complexity.

and after you turn it off you maintain that previous stealth speed

yeah I agree; turning off the button shouldn't increase your speed (unless you are actively pressing w or holding down mouse)

[Submarine-Player]

yeah I agree; turning off the button shouldn't increase your speed (unless you are actively pressing w or holding down mouse)

Exactly sounds like the perfect alternative to achieve the desired effect without adding complexity

[Crusader48]

How about have 2 buttons beside the surface/submerge and passive/active button. 1 of them is the speed cap and the other is speed cap and paused reloading. When you click on the speed cap it will reduce you speed to the maximum below cavitation speed but continue all normal processes including reloading. When you click a second time your speed continues to be capped but you can always change it using mouse pointer or keyboard.

The "super stealth" button that also pauses reloading works in the same way as the one above, only difference is that reloading is paused and when turned off reloading continues at a normal rate. This would help subs sneak up on ships, fire all weapons then pause reloading and leave the area without being detected. You could use the v and b keys to activate them; v for speed cap and b for speed cap and paused reloading because they aren't used for anything else. This is sort of like how z is for sensors and r is for surfacing and diving. I feel like 2 separate buttons is less complicated them 1 button with numerous clicks. The other option of only 1 button works as well, but I feel like it would make it harder to choose whether or not to pause reloading.

[Submarine-Player]

@finnbear @Crusader48

On the topic of balancing submarines, Seawolf offensive capabilities have been puzzling even before the update is there a reason why mk48s don't do more damage?

In addition to increasing its stealth speed to 20kn like it was discussed previously in this thread , could mk48s get a damage buff? or reduce Seawolf reload time so that only seawolf benefits from it.

Thoughts?

[Crusader48]

I have a idea for this issue. Why not make it that when you fire all torpedoes and they hit the same spot on a ship (like firing from point blank) the armor protection gets cut in half. For example, the Iowa has 40% topedo resistance, which I believe means that a 40% of the normal damage from a torpedo gets taken away. This means that instead of doing about 1.23 damage, a mk48 would only do about 0.74 (or 60%) damage. This makes sense because battleships and some cruisers have an armor belt around them protecting them from torpedoes, but why not make it that if many torpedoes hit the same spot all at once, it goes throught the armor and so gets cut in half. Just like a bullet proof vest, armor is able to stop 1, maybe 2 hits max, but if you fire multiple rounds at the same spot they will go right through.

In this example, if you were to fire all 8 mk48 torps at the same location on an Iowa, it's armor will be reduced from 40% to 20%. This means that instead of doing 0.74 damage, each torpedo will do 0.98. This should apply to every ship with torpedo resistance. To me this makes perfect sense becuase armor can only protect a few rounds, not an entire salvo. This would give Seawolf an advantage over other subs because it is one of the only subs capable fo sneaking up silently on large ships to fire from point blank. This would really help subs take on large ships that have armor such as the Yamato, Iowa, Kirov, Montana, Bismarck etc.

[Submarine-Player]

This sounds like a great idea
@finnbear thoughts? would something like this be doable?

[finnbear]

@finnbear thoughts? would something like this be doable?

Yes, we could implement this, especially if we make some simplifying assumptions.

Just you know @Crusader48, I'm taking this weekend to focus on fixing the spawning issue(s) 😄

[Submarine-Player]

especially if we make some simplifying assumptions.

👀

[Crusader48]

@finnbear, yes that would be great! As it is now spawning is the greatest issue. I just think that my idea would be sort of realistic as just like in real life armor can't stop tons of torpedoes and would balance help Seawolf take on larger ships.

Thanks :D