Transphobic maintainer should be removed from project #941
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If you want him removed, start working on Opal and contributing as much as him to everything he did for Opal so we have a replacement that's more in orientation with your morals and views. Protip: you won't because you can't. |
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Also to elaborate more on that, Opal is a technology, technology is moral-less, if a transgender contributor appeared @elia's views wouldn't even appear in here, because why would anyone care, bring contributions, they will be accepted with open arms, bring morals and politics in here, and you will be shown the metaphorical door. |
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@elia is free to have his opinions, in the case he'll bring his views against anyone contributing based on any of their mental or physical attributes, then it would be reason to tell him not to do that. As you @strand, are free to not contribute to Opal, feel free to use any other Ruby to JavaScript technology. |
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The opal team, though, is not a technology. Contributing to a software project also means contributing to the works of others, requiring mutual respect. Requesting contributions before being heard is a pretty low stab as well - you are basically saying that opinions gain worth with merit. |
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The personal views of a maintainer, as long as they are not influencing in a discriminatory way the contributions accepted in a project, should be off-limits for discussion IMHO. It pains me to see this even be an issue here. Thanks @meh for stating what should be obvious. |
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Damn. I found out about this project thanks to this issue, and it's super relevant to my interests. But not going to come near it with a thousand foot pole if these are the people I'd have to interact with. |
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To @meh and others who think that OSS is a moral-free zone: https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-dehumanizing-myth-of-the-meritocracy Pro tip: you won't read it because you don't care. |
Bingo. If developers can't trust the Opal team to treat them with respect, why would they want to use and contribute to Opal? Is the Opal team really willing to value a single contributor now over hundreds of users and contributers in the future? Seems pretty short-sighted to me. |
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@skade @elia is not telling anyone to not contribute to Opal because of their mental or physical attributes, and there isn't any unwelcoming to anyone contributing, he's free to say anything he wants, like you are, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the project. And requesting someone to be removed because of their views without even knowing what their work is, is as much of a low stab. |
Being this dismissive of someone is not really a great way to run an OSS project. You will lose out as people feel less welcome. Also Coraline has been in the industry for many years, and is one of the most seasoned developers I know. This was not a fair stab. |
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@aredridel as long as you interact with the people about the technology, you will be welcome and treated with respect. When you bring something completely unrelated, then you aren't, as simple as that. It's like I started talking about candy in here, it is not the place. |
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“The personal views of a maintainer, as long as they are not influencing in a discriminatory way the contributions accepted in a project” – the personal views of the maintainer influence even the contributions submitted to a project (including both patches and involvement in the community). They won’t be accepted because you never even get to see them. “not telling anyone to not contribute to Opal” – no, but he’s dissuading them from participating just by espousing these biases. |
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Exactly: as long as I interact solely about the technology, and who I am is never mentioned, I'm welcome to participate and be respected. This is second class participation, and this is not respect. |
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@CoralineAda I won't read it because it is not relevant to the project. If you want to tell people to not come near Opal because one of the people working on it doesn't like what you like, then feel free to, nobody is forcing anyone to use or not use Opal. |
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@aredridel you don't mention who you are because it doesn't matter, at all. Why would you bring it up when asking questions or discussing something related to Opal? It's completely irrelevant. |
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You want an active contributer removed from the project because of his political views? Seriously? And you're calling him discriminatory? Sigh. |
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I really can't imagine myself not wanting to contribute to an OSS project until I have vetted the personal views on a variety of issues of every single maintainer. This is madness, and frankly it's very hard for me to believe that's actually what some of you are saying... |
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It's not the views: it's how he interacts with others. Views held close are hard to care about. Views taken out in public, about people in that public? That requires care and consideration. |
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@fivetanley because wanting a core contributor out because he doesn't like candy and you do is not dismissive? I don't care how long @CoralineAda has been in the industry, this is irrelevant to the project. |
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@aredridel if he doesn't interact that way with people when talking about project related things, then it's not an issue for Opal. |
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Likening transphobia to a penchant for candy is offensive and belies a deeper ignorance. I guess this extends beyond @elia. |
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@CoralineAda in this particular situation, it is the exact same thing, you don't know anything about my views or who and what I am, and you never will, because it's irrelevant to technology. |
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@meh This is not about "what [someone] likes". It's about who a person is. That you think this is the same thing is why there's a problem, and why people are saying they don't feel safe in your community. |
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@meh many of your views are easy to discern from your comments here. All I'm saying: the reaction to this thread is a reason why I'd go from 'Oh, this software is cool' to "nope, not in a million years". It's that I've got the energy to spare that I'm willing to speak up and say something. |
No, I'm saying you not even browsing Coraline's github to measure "merit" is dismissive; her work and expertise in ruby obviously speaks for itself. Also comparing people to candy is really dehumanizing and makes me really sad. As someone who often works on JS transforms I had been interested in opal for a while, but now I won't contribute. The way you treat Coraline by not at least listening and asking questions, and also the way you are talking to me, tells me everything about the way you run the project. Farewell. I'm sure others will be able to expound their views more clearly. |
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@sipple who and what a person is, is irrelevant to the project, as long as those things aren't brought up in the project itself, and they shouldn't be, because there's no need to. |
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@aredridel you're welcome to use any other Ruby to JavaScript technologies, nobody is forcing you to use Opal or contribute to it. If it works for you, use it, if it doesn't, don't. |
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@abritinthebay Tell me again how this doesn't fit in with the Gamergate narrative? |
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@to-json I'd argue that we are surrounded by toxic lunatics every day. They're just exceptionally stealthy about their business. |
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@krainboltgreene I don't think I ever said it didn't? I just meant lets not lump @meh in with those fools when he's already said the original comments weren't representative of the project and is open to a CoC. That's what I was objecting to. People like the two trolls above are obviously in the mold you mention (if not GG, then similar hate-driven reactionary groups, they all have the same predictable m.o.) |
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@vgf89 I totally get the rationale behind your argument, and wish it worked like that. Ideally we could just accept good code and call it a day, but I don't think it's that simple. Many many people in this thread have already chimed in saying they aren't comfortable contributing to opal just because of the opinions of one of the maintainers. Some of them are already incredible developers. Some of them are just starting. Some of them don't even write code. But when you sum the potential for their contributions, it's way bigger than any one person. And this doesn't stop with opal. Think of all the people who had the potential to contribute to OSS (or even become devs at a closed source shop and do useful work), but saw the developer community that reacts with hostility to their mere existence, and then went somewhere else. Usually we don't even hear their voices because they don't even get that far into our communities. A few of them like @CoralineAda have the energy and guts to speak up, but most don't. The biggest thing we can do to help is listen and consider what people not like us have to say. |
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@krainboltgreene I tried to look up what all this drama is about on Twitter, but 60% of what I see is you alleging someone else said various things and not providing sources for your claims. A few times you even had to correct yourself after they asked about it. The rest is either very ambiguous due to Twitter-brevity or in Italian, and sometimes there's obviously missing context that tweets were in reply to but was deleted. To me it really looks like you're trying to smear someone as hard as possible because they don't happen to agree with you on an issue that is far more complicated than anything that is alleged here. |
Transphobic maintainer should be removed from project
That's just the title and the first response btw. Let's meditate a bit on this one, and continue with our lives. There are plenty of Gay, Transgender or whatever people in the OSS community that are pretty descent on what they do, and guess what everyone respects their opinion if it's right. How strange. Also, in case someone missed a history class and don't know about the culture that we're building on http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#believe5
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Wow that escalated quickly. I also suggest closing the issue as it has nothing to do with Opal; we were having a private discussion that just happens to be on a public platform. As it happens I think Kurtis and I were doing a great job of helping (and I mean helping the cause) something the drama in this thread is not doing a good job of at all. For the record, I took his comments in that tweet as two separate points and feel this has been blown out of proportion. |
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Remove this nonsense already, arguing with these people is pissing into the wind. |
I wanna build on top of this. The common narrative is, roughly 'If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen', and there's an elegance to that. However, it sits on top of a perception that FOSS does not need more people. Opal may not need more people; don't know, don't care enough to scroll up and check the open issue count. However, as a whole, FOSS definitely could use more motivated, interested bodies. This is especially true WRT adding things like accessibility options for webapps, or refining UIs. When you select for people compatible with working around assholes, you create large blind spots, and because of the nature of blind spots, you can't even see that they are present until your shit starts falling over or becomes disused. Good projects die because of the perception that the human element is irrelevant. Also, it's no wonder that ESR wants OSS to be a sociopath friendly zone if you've ever read his blog... |
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This discussion is even more interesting considering that @meh has repositories named fag and ruby-clit. Just sayin'. |
No, it sits on a perception that we don't need more people who care more about political correctness than contribution. Why does everyone think this is some new idea they are delivering to the unwashed hackers? Open source is completely predicated on cooperation, acceptance, and diversity. You literally don't even have this system to make comments without it. No one is swallowing the poison pill being sold here except the people selling it. That's your right as an Anglo (as I'm sure most of you cultural colonialists are, as per usual) |
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This beyond insanity at this point. You people want to live in a world where everyone shares your opinion and if anyone expresses a differing opinion you want to hunt them down and stop them from contributing to FOSS projects, projects you're not even involved with; and you're so zealous in your bigotry you cannot see that you are the aggressor in this situation. You cannot see that a world where people cannot express opinions you find distasteful is not a utopian paradise but a prison that will trap us all. Someone's beliefs have nothing to do with code. These are fundamental differences between our worldviews. If you cannot accept that worldview work a different project that applies your principles there a lot of them starting up I hear. |
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You wound me, Anal Dash. I am felled by your wit. |
You haven't the foggiest what anyone's priorities are, nor what you lose by excluding them. Drop the myopia, it's a bad look. |
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@CoralineAda You're on the warpath now, aren't you? |
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@curti21 emoji laugh |
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Honestly, meh, I think you should just quickly have said "Closed as it is not a contribution nor relevant to the project." and locked the thread. These people are clearly more interested in discussing OT subjects than your project. |
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I'd have zero problem using good code from a sociopath, such as a person who wishes to banish a contributor who feels that transsexuality is a disorder. Welcome, totalitarians! |
You're right, I don't. So, you're saying that you value contribution over political correctness? If so, how is this topic in existence? You are either being intellectually dishonest, or you have some insight into something I haven't considered. Please, explain to all of us how starting a witch hunt on a developer over their personal remarks on Twitter is indicative of valuing contribution over political correctness. |
I'm not the one being excluded (in this case). My valuse aren't really a factor. That said, I value good organizational principles over either of those things.
It's not. Witch hunt is exaggeratory, and starting this thread indicates exactly one thing: That @CoralineAda saw a problem she saw fit to bring up with the maintainers. It is neither indicative of her priorities, nor those of the people talking. Know what's important to me? My kids. Good weather. My bike. Fresh air. Code quality ranks somewhere around "Having spare toilet paper" and "Mangoes for breakfast instead of cereal". It's a nice to have. However, having a good OSS community is more important to me that what I might have otherwise done with spare moments today. |
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Ouch. Good one. |
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Crying for the removal of any one person from any position due to disagreements of opinion that took place in an outside venue is exactly a witch hunt. |
Actually, during witch hunts, real men burned real women on real stakes until they died. By comparison, this was a request that a person no longer have access to a particular collection of bits. You're right, though, the SJWs are definitely the ridiculous ones here, asking for respect and stuff. How dare we. |
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Edit: I think my previous comment above was being misinterpreted to my intent, so hopefully here is some clarity. I agree we do need a code of conduct, and #942 is a productive chat on this, and I will repeat what I said in that thread: No contributors code is more important than the community at large. Project owners, maintainers and core contributors represent the ethics of a project. They are given those titles for good reason - to represent the project. |
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For anyone looking to expand on this topic in a constructive manner: #942. |
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I have locked this issue not to stop the conversation, but to direct it to somewhere more appropriate. Over the last few days, a number of people in this conversation have taken the issue in hand and shown that discrimination against other individuals in our industry is, quite frankly, alarming. The tech/development/computer industry has a long and troubled history of discrimination against various groups of individuals which, judging by some of the comments in this and other threads, shows no sign of improving anytime soon. To the people who contributed comments and messages looking to improve our community: thank you. This whole matter could have been sorted in a peaceful manner; instead the problems in our community are not just present inside Opal, they are still present within the whole developer community. I encourage every individual who has taken part in this conversation to review our recently committed Code of Conduct. That is the standard this project will be run against, however I am open to making further improvements. Please help continue this discussion at http://metaruby.com/c/ruby-forum/community-issues Thank you, Adam. |
The Code of Conflict is not achieving its implicit goal of fostering civility and the spirit of 'be excellent to each other'. Explicit guidelines have demonstrated success in other projects and other areas of the kernel. Here is a Code of Conduct statement for the wider kernel. It is based on the Contributor Covenant as described at www.contributor-covenant.org From this point forward, we should abide by these rules in order to help make the kernel community a welcoming environment to participate in. Signed-off-by: Chris Mason <clm@fb.com> Signed-off-by: Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com> Signed-off-by: Jonathan Corbet <corbet@lwn.net> Signed-off-by: Olof Johansson <olof@lxom.net> Signed-off-by: Steven Rostedt (VMware) <rostedt@goodmis.org> Signed-off-by: Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> Signed-off-by: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>
and others
Elia Schito is publicly calling trans people out for "not accepting reality" on Twitter. His Twitter profile mentions that he is a core contributor to opal. Is this what the other maintainers want to be reflected in the project? Will any transgender developers feel comfortable contributing?
https://twitter.com/krainboltgreene/status/611569515315507200
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