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fixes to verbpdgm13 and verbpdgm14 #61

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monzug opened this issue Dec 5, 2019 · 19 comments
Closed

fixes to verbpdgm13 and verbpdgm14 #61

monzug opened this issue Dec 5, 2019 · 19 comments
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greek inflection-tables inflections-table-data-questionable verified

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@monzug
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monzug commented Dec 5, 2019

related to issue alpheios-project/inflection-tables#289
lookup for μεμνῄμεθα produces no results.
need to verify the endings for this verb and also the duals of the optative plural of Perfect System Middle-Passive: simple subjunctive, optative, imperative table
@monzug monzug self-assigned this Dec 5, 2019
@monzug
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monzug commented Dec 5, 2019

Note that duals are frequently in black and not red in the paradigm tables in https://ucbclassics.dreamhosters.com/ancgreek/paradigmsU/paradigms_U.html
maybe it means that their entries are questionable.

@balmas balmas changed the title optative plural in verbpdgm14 should be checked as it produces no results is μεμνῄμεθα (optative plural in verbpdgm14) a valid form Jan 15, 2020
@monzug
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monzug commented Feb 3, 2020

need to verify against Smyth

@balmas balmas transferred this issue from alpheios-project/inflection-tables Feb 11, 2020
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monzug commented Feb 19, 2020 •
edited

uhm, this is complicated. in Smyth the perfect imperative looks like the simple perfect imperative with more endings (duals and 3rd person plural). also, the perfect subjunctive and Optative are periphrastic forms.because I ma not able to search such forms in orpheus, I am not able to dig in deeper.
it looks like verbpdgm14 should be a perfp_p, reg_conj but I am not able to find the Smyth subjunctive and optative forms that could match Mastronarde table.
need to sleep over this

@balmas
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balmas commented Feb 19, 2020

tagging @vgorman1 in case she has thoughts about this one

@monzug
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monzug commented Feb 19, 2020

good idea. I was waiting to ask for her help after having a better idea of Smyth perfect system vs Mastronarde perfect system.

@vgorman1
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vgorman1 commented Feb 19, 2020 via email

@monzug
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monzug commented Feb 19, 2020

that's the form that puzzled me. the imperative in mastronarde is periphrastic while in Smyth is not + I don't get where this simple perfect come from. will dig in more tomorrow.
Thanks Vanessa.

@vgorman1
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vgorman1 commented Feb 19, 2020 via email

@monzug
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monzug commented Feb 19, 2020

that's the active system, here we are only considering the perfect middle-passive forms

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vgorman1 commented Feb 19, 2020 via email

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monzug commented Feb 21, 2020 •
edited

verbpdgm13
what I will do based on Smyth:
the imperative in verbpdgm13 table should not be periphrastic (see Smyth section 382 page 113 with the conjugation of λύ̄ω loose).
the imperative should be changed as follow (which is the correct form for λύ̄ω )
λέλυσο 2nd person singular
λελύσθω 3rd person singular
λέλυσθε 2nd person plural
the dual and 3rd plural are wanting (section 712.a)

verbpdgm14
there is such a simple form constructed in Smyth, section 709 such as perf. μέμνημαι remember: με-μνά-ω-μαι = μεμνῶμαι, μεμνη-ώ-μεθα = μεμνώμεθα
in Smyth section 711.b : μιμνῄσκω (μνα-) remind perf. μέμνημαι remember; opt. μεμνη-ί̄-μην = μεμνῄμην, μεμνή-ῑ-σο = μεμνῇο, μεμνή-ῑ-το = μεμνῇτο, etc. The forms μεμνῴμην, -ῷο, -ῷτο, etc., from μεμνη-ο-ί̄-μην, etc., are uncommon and suspected.
based on this comment, what I would do:

  1. I would remove the second column in the simple Optative
    (also not found in Morpheus).
  2. to make it simple (and avoid confusion), I would restrict this table to the lemma μιμνήσκω - remind, put in mind; (o μιμνῄσκω) - after all there are only few verbs listed in Smyth which would do a match with this table, the other one is κεκτῆται
    (lemma κτάομαι acquire)

@balmas, what do u think?

going back to this issue's title, to have a match we should change μεμνῄμεθα into μεμνήμεθα , but I could not find the exact ending in Smyth. I found it by changing the accent in Morpheus. the dual 3rd person plural is μεμνήσθην in Morpheus and not μεμνῄσθην (the accent, again). could not find a match in Morpheus for the 2nd dual.

@monzug monzug assigned balmas and unassigned monzug Feb 21, 2020
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balmas commented Feb 21, 2020

I would remove the second column in the simple Optative
(also not found in Morpheus).
to make it simple (and avoid confusion), I would restrict this table to the lemma μιμνήσκω - remind, put in mind; (o μιμνῄσκω) - after all there are only few verbs listed in Smyth which would do a match with this table, the other one is κεκτῆται
(lemma κτάομαι acquire)
@balmas, what do u think?

this sounds good to me

@monzug
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monzug commented Feb 21, 2020

how about the change in verbpdgm13 on the imperative column?

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balmas commented Feb 21, 2020

how about the change in verbpdgm13 on the imperative column?

yes, agree

@monzug
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monzug commented Feb 21, 2020 via email

@balmas
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balmas commented Apr 1, 2020

to have a match we should change μεμνῄμεθα into μεμνήμεθα , but I could not find the exact ending in Smyth. I found it by changing the accent in Morpheus. the dual 3rd person plural is μεμνήσθην in Morpheus and not μεμνῄσθην (the accent, again). could not find a match in Morpheus for the 2nd dual.

This part of the issue is now alpheios-project/morpheus#32

@balmas balmas changed the title is μεμνῄμεθα (optative plural in verbpdgm14) a valid form fixes to verbpdgm13 and verbpdgm14 Apr 1, 2020
@balmas balmas mentioned this issue Apr 1, 2020
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@balmas balmas closed this as completed in 25d0de1 Apr 1, 2020
@vgorman1
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vgorman1 commented Apr 1, 2020 via email

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balmas commented Apr 10, 2020

Alpheios Components 3.3.0-qa.20200410462

@balmas balmas assigned monzug and unassigned balmas Apr 10, 2020
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monzug commented Apr 20, 2020

looks all good to me. Thanks

@monzug monzug removed their assignment Apr 20, 2020
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